The Competition & Teaser Thread

[Strela]

Just wondering with the smaller scale compared to PzC, it would seem nice to have lower-level markings as in Battalion-level markings for the smaller scenarios. This could be an option, so players could choose which level of organization they wanted highlighted.

Gerry

Gerry,

We looked at this early on. The medium sized scenarios in game are Divisional sized. We tried Regimental/Brigade markings but found it added little utility beyond using the highlight organisation display. More significantly it made it harder to work out which support assets (engineers, artillery etc.) were supporting who.

Leaving it the way it is in PzC at Divisional level and using the Highlight Organisation button liberally seemed to work ok. None of the play testers have said to the contrary.

At a Battalion level it has become a lot easier since we used the 'Xaver Battalion Identification' naming convention

David

[wildb]

My guess is that the map shown is in the vicinity of Nepkhayevo, Vislaye, and Gostiche.

[ComradeP]

In that case, where is the Kursk-Belgorod railroad?

To me it seems likely that the Tank Corps with the Guards Tank Regiment attached is the 18th, as it's the only non-Guards unit I can find that had a Guards Tank Regiment attached during the entirety of the operations.

If it isn't Prokhorovka, it might be a Soviet counterattack on the 17th or so against the retreating German forces. I can find references to it, but no actual description. It's still peculiar that there are at least 2 SS divisions in a fairly straight line over a lengthy section of the front and it isn't a battle surrounding Prokhorovka.

[Strela]

In that case, where is the Kursk-Belgorod railroad?

To me it seems likely that the Tank Corps with the Guards Tank Regiment attached is the 18th, as it's the only non-Guards unit I can find that had a Guards Tank Regiment attached during the entirety of the operations.

If it isn't Prokhorovka, it might be a Soviet counterattack on the 17th or so against the retreating German forces. I can find references to it, but no actual description. It's still peculiar that there are at least 2 SS divisions in a fairly straight line over a lengthy section of the front and it isn't a battle surrounding Prokhorovka.

I am feeling for you ComradeP.... I'll owe you a beer by the time the game is released

Here is the scenarios complete map - will that help?

Of interest another feature that has been enhanced is 'Snapshot'. I never knew this existed to be honest! It allows any map to be saved as an image (initially a BMP file). Units & labels can either be turned on or off for the screen capture. You can save the image at any of the three of the zoom levels, though some maps will be too big if done at the closest zoom. Once copied you can head off to your local printer to get your own physical planning map! It's also great for AAR's etc. I expect we will include the full map with the game at Zoom level 2 with the game package.


This map was taken at the furthest zoom out (level 1) and captured with Snapshot. The BMP has been converted to JPG for size reasons.




David

[ComradeP]

I'm afraid I must admit defeat.

Normally, I'm quite good at these things, but I've been staring at - and comparing maps for hours for several days without productive results. It has some similarities to the area south of Prokhorovka, but aside from there being a railroad instead of a road, there would also need to be a lake in what would be the middle of the German line, unless that's post-war or dries up in summer.

I've checked the area west of Kharkov where the SS was back in action after the Mius and couldn't really find anything that would fit in a map also covering the southern part of Zitadelle.

If I had Lage Ost maps for the period, this would be really easy, but doing it the hard way isn't working.

[Xaver]

A little question about counters... they are in a file with flags like in PzC or you have a file with counters and other with flags/national symbols???

I allways see SS as black counters and wehrmacht grey and i plan try made darker SS counters and a little bright wehrmacht, this or use SS counters in wehrmacht and paint SS in black

And well, i cant add more to the ComradeP he is close to give him a silver lining for his mental health

I see the PzC map and there are some places that could be the minimap scen, i see south Prokhorovka, a little on it south-east there is a river (PzB has a river in german rear north-south) a road north-south and north side has more elevation in terrain than south... the problem is no villages in the middle or forest... coordinates are 216-219 to 217-230 if you see the south part like in PzC there is a village with road that cross a river.. in PzB image are the last german units in with yellow divisional colour in the south..

Nice, then now we can take a Snapshot of the map you are playing... is an extra option no??? the old snapshot works??? well i never use it but i use a external program to take images.

Thanks.

[Outlaw Josey Wales]

In that case, where is the Kursk-Belgorod railroad?

To me it seems likely that the Tank Corps with the Guards Tank Regiment attached is the 18th, as it's the only non-Guards unit I can find that had a Guards Tank Regiment attached during the entirety of the operations.

If it isn't Prokhorovka, it might be a Soviet counterattack on the 17th or so against the retreating German forces. I can find references to it, but no actual description. It's still peculiar that there are at least 2 SS divisions in a fairly straight line over a lengthy section of the front and it isn't a battle surrounding Prokhorovka.

Considering the scale, maybe the RR wasn't close enough to be on the map.

[ComradeP]

On large parts of the area I'm talking about, it's sadly pretty much right next to the road, which confuses things.

One of the things I dislike when reading books about certain battles is that there's often a lot of detail on the prologue, the battle and its climactic engagements and the aftermath or epilogue, but the part of the prologue leading to the climax tends to be far more detailed than the part of the climax leading to the aftermath.

In the books on Kursk I've checked in the last few days, there's a lot of detail up to the final stages of the battle near Prokhorovka (not just the well known battle, but also Operation Roland and the small scale encirclement southeast of Prokhorovka), and then the Germans magically warp back to their starting line and the story moves on to the Mius and Rumyantsev.

The level of detail moves from "W battalion of X regiment of Y division attacked here at time Z" to remove an enemy described in the same detail to "two sides met, people got hurt".

In order to find information (and for precise unit strengths) on the less well known parts of a battle, you're often forced to read unit histories. That's where the fact that I'm only 26 is a handicap as a lot of the good unit histories were published in the 60's and 70's and are out of print. I also don't have the means to plan a prolonged trip to a military archive in the US, Germany or Russia to, for example, check some Lage Ost maps that are not available online or finding out what strength a certain German or Soviet formation had.

If you know where to look, OOB's, information on commanders and general descriptions of what an Allied or German unit did during the war can be found with relative ease. It's the more obscure information that really requires you to dive into some detailed literature.

-

The second screenshot of the series of scenario screenshots is also somewhat puzzling. I'd assume it shows elements from III Panzer Korps as they're attacking east. It could also be a battlegroup of GD attacking across the Pena north of Verkhopenye.

In game terms it seems some units attached to a certain formation for the duration of the battle are considered to be organic, like the Guards Heavy Tank Regiment for 18th Tank Corps (in the OOB/TOE's I've seen, a Tank Corps didn't organically have an independent Tank Regiment, not to mention a heavy one). The Guards Mortar unit that's organic also doesn't match the early to late 1943 OOB where the regular Tank Corps loses the 8 Katyusha's it was allowed to have from mid 1942 until they are allowed to have 16 in late 1943, at least in WitE (I'd have to check the rest)

I guess it's similar to how the US used its Tank Destroyer battalions as temporary semi-organic components for a certain part of a campaign (for example). This was not yet the case in PzC Moscow '42, but it makes sense to do it this way when a formation would otherwise have no nearby higher HQ.

Anyway, the Tigers in the screenshot don't belong to the same formation as the motorized units, whilst as far as I know the 503rd Schwere Panzer battalion was split between the three Panzer divisions of III Panzer Korps, similar to the SS divisions and GD having a Tiger company. As companies are not HQ's, it has to be a battalion HQ, which further complicates things unless it's a staff of the 503rd (or they're not Tigers also a possibility).

[Kuriltai]

Finally decided to look at Blood Steel and Myth.
Looks to me like a prelude to Prokhorovka scenario.Teterevino and Lusniki toward the top of the map The 2 arms of the donets river.This would mean that the main road we are looking at is actually the elevated RR line on the zoomed out map.
Scenario title would'nt be Franz Staudeggers Incredible stand would it ?

[ComradeP]

That area is also the area I thought it was, but although it fits in a number of ways, including a lake on the eastern river, there is no lake on the western river (and currently, there is), so it could be that it dried up in summer or became that patch of marshy terrain.

Also: if that is indeed 18th Tank Corps, it can't be a prelude as 5th Guards Tank Army attacked on the same day as the Germans (the 12th) and as far as I know not before that. As the actual battle for Prokhorovka would happen further north and parts of the frontline on this map would be held by the 167th infantry division and even the Soviet 69th Army (Das Reich's right flank was hanging in the breeze), this would have to be a post-Prokhorovka operation.

There's also issue of neither of the northern Tank Corps having their motorized infantry brigade with them and the northern SS division seemingly not having (m)any tanks aside from one or two tank units unless they're stacked with the rest of the defenders. The map is also probably cut for a reason, with parts of LSSAH not being present.