PB Kursk '43 South impressions/discussion

[Strela]

Were all of the Korps sized scenarios balanced towards a German victory if it happened historically? Let's take the II SS Panzer Korps July 5th scenario as an example.

You start with the same forces you have for Hill 228_6 as your active forces. However, the Soviets have all of their artillery available to them, and artillery limits are high considering the amount of casualties Katyusha's cause combined with the requirement for overstacking if you want to launch credible assaults.

I moved my men up and as the Soviets targeted the Pionier units with the artillery. Casualties were acceptable, about 13 men or so. The next turn, I assaulted the Soviets with the couple of units that could assault. None of the SMG units disrupted.

As the Soviets, I targeted the large assault stacks, which resulted in one company becoming combat ineffective. Another company followed next turn. For the cost of having lost the combat effectiveness of an entire battalion in just 2 turns of action, I captured 2 objectives. A few turns afterwards, 2 Soviet companies activate and my men are stuck, hammered by artillery.

The result was entirely predictable: good artillery, high artillery limited, only a handful of friendly units and a lot of objectives to capture. That wasn't likely to work. It often doesn't work in Hill 228_6 and it doesn't work when the Soviets have all of their artillery at their disposal, a significant chunk of which can fire at your men. It's a similar problem to what can happen in PzC: large artillery concentrations cause high losses in a limited amount of time. That combined with the rather variable results of whether or not you can capture bunkers means your men are very vulnerable.

The historical outcome of the scenario was probably a major victory: the SS successfully penetrated the first Soviet defensive lines. I wonder how many playtesters got that result.

What tactics were used to counter the Soviet cherrypicking units to attack, making them combat ineffective for the rest of the game? Isolated units can still spot, and as long as you are adjacent to a Soviet unit, it's very easy for the Soviet player to simply direct an overwhelming amount of artillery at your spearhead. Without any means of replacing your strength, that's a disaster for the Germans.

ComradeP,

Most scenarios were tested vs the AI. As you can imagine having the time to play test multiplayer for every scenario was impractical, particularly with the base game build changing over time.

I personally played the SS Jul 5 scenario and got axis wins most of the time. That said it was tough going and in the balance for quite awhile.

Your comment regarding artillery was realized when doing the scenario. I originally made most of the artillery unavailable but it resupplied quickly. I have realized I have missed the simplest way to handle this and that's to have the artillery arrive as a reinforcement. That will solve most of the issues you're seeing. Please note every unit shown was there historically, but as you point out fire control is more effective in game than real life.

I'll setup a multiplayer version of this scenario.

Finally, yes I tried to ensure that the Axis player received a win if they achieved the historical outcome. In a scenario like SS July 6, I trimmed back the requirements as what the SS achieved that day was truly astounding and probably beyond most players.

David

[ComradeP]

As with Moscow '42: don't get me wrong, I really like the game, which makes the moments where the mechanics struggle more frustrating.

The Soviets being Fixed for most of the game means that they need some way to put up a reasonable defense with artillery, so that's fine by me. However, even though casualties from individual artillery units aside from Katyusha's are not that high, it all adds up in the end without replacements.

Targeting the spearheading units with artillery is a very effective Soviet strategy that can cause problems in a scenario where German forces don't activate at the same time.

The difference in the starting scenarios is interesting, by the way. III Panzer Korps has to clear about 7-8 lines of bunkers and pillboxes on a wide front (not for the faint of heart or people who have difficulty with losing as the Germans) so that's clearly the most difficult starting scenario from that perspective.

The SS have to go through about 4-5 lines of bunkers depending on where you advance.

XXXXVIII Panzer Korps has 2-3 lines of bunkers and some villages to clear, with soft conditions. The Soviets do have good artillery support.

The III Panzer Korps scenario for July 7th seems to be designed for the masochistically inclined German player : there are no less than 12 Katyusha units on the map combined with other good artillery.

I guess one of the main challenges for the Germans in the non-III Panzer Korps scenarios is the ATR screen. All of those units are spotters, so you need to divert troops to find and clear them if you want to move units to the front in T mode without them getting hammered.

[Strela]

The nice thing about the Corp scenarios is that you really understand why some forces advanced at a reasonable pace (II SS PzK), others really struggled (III PzK) and others squandered a significant opportunity due to faulty tactics (XXXXVIII PzK). And lets not take credit away from the Soviets, there ultimate strategy of bleeding the Germans dry and then counterattacking worked to a tee.

David

[ComradeP]

Were the victory points rebalanced just prior to release, maybe some scenarios have errors in their point totals somehow? Some scenarios seem either extremely difficult or impossible to win in terms of points.

For example, there are 450 points on the map in Blizhniaia Igumenka. You need 600 for a minor victory and 800 for a major victory. Maybe casualty points are high, but it's difficult for the Germans to keep those significantly positive when attacking bunkers.

[mfarl2001]

Got Kursk Southern Front last night. I'm liking the scale, and the eye candy is very nice. The games keep getting better. One thing I had a problem with is getting over the rail embankment in the second scenario, the boys were not in travel mode, and started the turn adjacent to it but still couldn't move onto it. What am I missing?

I really liked was the extra maps and OB's after a scenario r two I spent the rest of the evening pouring over the maps and OB's.

Thank you for the good work.
Oh and message me is anyone is up for a email game.

[rzhev42]

Got Kursk Southern Front last night. I'm liking the scale, and the eye candy is very nice. The games keep getting better. One thing I had a problem with is getting over the rail embankment in the second scenario, the boys were not in travel mode, and started the turn adjacent to it but still couldn't move onto it. What am I missing?

I really liked was the extra maps and OB's after a scenario r two I spent the rest of the evening pouring over the maps and OB's.

Thank you for the good work.
Oh and message me is anyone is up for a email game.

In the Scenarios Description there is a players note at the bottom with a hint that the units need to go "on foot" to get over the embankment. So under the "Command" menu there is a selection to "Go On Foot". Glad you like the Maps and Visual OOB extras!

Michael

[ComradeP]

The motorized units have to be in "Go on foot" state (selectable in the Command menu) to get over the top of the embankment.

Edit: Michael beat me to it as I was playing a turn.

[ComradeP]

According to the manual

Units with Assault = 0 are automatically overrun when attacked at only
the cost of movement into the defending hex.

But HQ's, which have no documented assault value, defend like normal units when assaulted and don't vacate their hex. It seems some information is missing from the explanation in the manual.

I was under the impression, based on the rule, that an HQ by itself would withdraw when attacked, but that is not the case.

Edit: After checking the OOB, it seems HQ's have an undocumented assault value of 1. The big company sized Soviet HQ's are credible defensive units.

[Tide1]

According to the manual

Units with Assault = 0 are automatically overrun when attacked at only
the cost of movement into the defending hex.

But HQ's, which have no documented assault value, defend like normal units when assaulted and don't vacate their hex. It seems some information is missing from the explanation in the manual.

I was under the impression, based on the rule, that an HQ by itself would withdraw when attacked, but that is not the case.

Edit: After checking the OOB, it seems HQ's have an undocumented assault value of 1. The big company sized Soviet HQ's are credible defensive units.

I've run into them while they where in consistent concealment. Tried to assault them and bounced off. Only after causing them some casualties could I move them. I'm sure at the time I was using a machinegun platoon.

[Outlaw Josey Wales]

There were times when HQs didn't retreat. How many times have we read where they put clerks, cooks etc in the line? It has happened and not all were just clerks and cooks. Some turned out pretty good.