CMRT: tank combat seems way off

[A Canadian Cat]

Yep that is the spotting part of the hull down bug. I don't recall if you had your discussion before or after the hull down bug was discovered.

[ARCH]

Could the skill setting have a big impact on how spotting works in hull down? I've seen people suggest that Iron and elite settings can cause unrealistic issues with spotting targets?

Also the differences of spotting between the commander hatch being open compared to when he is looking through a slit could have a drastic impact (Which everyone here has most likely figured out)

Like in this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VBd5bvXy3QY - Where the t-34's have their hatches open.

Although risky as hell, having the hatch open can bring some great results in hull down for the time being until its resolved....well I hope so anyway

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Re-reading through and looking at the posted pictures, Steiner14 already tested it with the hatches open? anyway just posting some thoughts.

[A Canadian Cat]

Could the skill setting have a big impact on how spotting works in hull down? I've seen people suggest that Iron and elite settings can cause unrealistic issues with spotting targets?

No, the skill settings do not change who spots whom at all. I guess there is one that reverts to borg spotting but even then it does not effect the initial spotting process it just makes the information instantly shared with all friendly troops.

Also the differences of spotting between the commander hatch being open compared to when he is looking through a slit could have a drastic impact (Which everyone here has most likely figured out)

Absolutely, tanks have had their ability to spot tuned down since the initial release - because viewing the world through view ports is very restrictive. Having the hatch open and a head out makes a large difference. Couple that with one half of the defect regarding hull down was that all the eyeballs in a tank were treated equally (or at least not differently enough) so more eye balls meant better ability to spot things. However not every seat in a tank has the same ability to see. Some seats only have a restrictive view in one direction and others have 360 degree views. So with the hull down tank the guys in the hull cannot see anything and therefore that thank only has the turret crew able to spot things. If the turret crew, who usually have access to better view ports are treated as equal at spotting as the crew in the hull (when their view is not blocked) then the hull down tank will spot less well than the tank in the open by a larger degree than it should.

[Steiner14]

An interesting thesis.
If it is correct, the commander's ability to spot, depending on the equipment of the tank, seems to be weighted to low in certain situations.

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I am ex-armoured so yes I try to do the real world tricks and tactics I learned, but they don't work in this game.

Interesting.
What would be your three most important aspects in their respective order, that disturb the modelling of WWII (not modern) tank combat?

[A Canadian Cat]

An interesting thesis.
If it is correct, the commander's ability to spot, depending on the equipment of the tank, seems to be weighted to low in certain situations.

BFC concluded that the hull crew had to much weight (same difference in the end - except turning down the ability of the hull crew will not give tanks more spotting ability while turning up the commander's ability would). Post #55 here http://www.battlefront.com/community/sho...?p=1492444 (also post #107 and #114)

it should work that more eyeballs produces better results. Just like being buttoned or unbuttoned should have an affect, as should moving or stationary. The question should be if the driver/radio operator are contributing too much to the overall spotting picture not if they should be factored out completely. I'm wondering if the internal weights favor information from the driver/radio operator more than they perhaps should.

[Weasel]

Cdn tanks are always hatches open for turret crew (mostly commander) and hull crew is buttoned, hatches are only closed in artillery or infantry assaults, otherwise the Cmdr just ducks down. Read "Tigers in the Mud", Carrius points out that the Russians always advanced hatches down while the Germans stayed opened, resulting in first spotting most of the time and first shot away. He pointed it out as one of their biggest flaws.

In games terms, in OW, I always stay opened, but I have found commanders get picked off far too easily in CM2 so once I go into combat I close up just because I am tired of hearing my commanders scream. There is no ducking, just standing up oblivious to it all. The pzIV thing was a few months ago, don't know when the bug was brought up but it explains why my PzIV in Montys Butchers got clobbered hull down (he had been there for a long time, at least 10 turns), hatches open, without seeing or returning fire from the enemy over 800m away just a week or two ago.

Just another note: I know form being on the ranges that a lot of drivers just sit there while shooting, figuring they got you there, their job is done. It was brought up over and over for them to be more active, with little results. I became quite good at it myself, I picked out a hull down turret 700m away in a tree line when the other four tanks missed it (I got a big cookie for it). I would always ask myself " where would I hide if I were a tank" and it worked. It was funny to hear the troop commander start screaming for the charlie call sign to engage it, but by then we would have been dead (I was the troop commanders drive/back up gunner).

[Steiner14]

Fascinating.
And many, many thanks for the hint to Carius' book.

[ARCH]

That makes a lot more sense now with the explanation of crew vs. commander weight.

Possibly there should be an extra option for tank commanders automatically duck when they actually spot an enemy? Instead of waiting till they are fired upon?

When I have the opportunity I try to manually duck my commander in and out of the hatch for better spotting and protection when the time comes for it.

But in a case where you click replay and you have no control it can be a problem

For example when I leave the commander out of the hatch to spot in hull down and an enemy comes out of the brush and begins to blast away often injuring, or killing the commander long before he decides to close the hatch.

[Weasel]

Fascinating.
And many, many thanks for the hint to Carius' book.

Very good book. The back of the book has after action reports and also copies of his commendations in both German and English. Second time I have read it.

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For example when I leave the commander out of the hatch to spot in hull down and an enemy comes out of the brush and begins to blast away often injuring, or killing the commander long before he decides to close the hatch.

My pet peeve too. In reality as soon as the first bullet is noted the commander would be dropping down, not necessarily closing the hatch, but dropping onto his seat and then scanning via the scopes to locate the shooter.

[Steiner14]

Fascinating.
And many, many thanks for the hint to Carius' book.

Very good book. The back of the book has after action reports and also copies of his commendations in both German and English. Second time I have read it.

I ordered the book directly from Mr. Carius' former pharmacy (http://www.tiger-apotheke.de).
Two years ago he still was working in his pharmacy. He was the oldest active pharmacist in Germany at that time.
And Oberleutnant a.D. Carius signed the book personally!!!

The book indeed is very good. Lots of excellent information. And so many tragic, but also funny and extraordinary experiences. The color facsimiles of the commendations at the back are a great addition, too.
Thanks again for the recommendation.