Enemy minefields in the jump map

[Seisen]

Hi everyone! I am new at The Blitz.

I am really enjoying PzB; the scales in time and space are perfect, and the gameplay is really smooth

Please excuse me if this has already been posted/discussed before :
I don't understand why it is possible to see the location of the enemy minefields on the jump map BEFORE those have been effectively detected by friendly units (and are then shown by the five dots marker on the main window). As for the friendly minefields, they are displayed with grey-ish squares in the jump map. Also, only the hidden minefields that are on the line of sight of friendly units (at the beginning of the turn I guess) are shown.

It is then easy to locate and bypass most of them by just looking (closely, though) at the jump map, and save the engineers from running around too much. Is it "fair" to allow that in the game, historically speaking?

So yeah, one solution would be to NOT look closely at the jump map, but that's difficult. I checked the forums and the doc, but I did not see anything about this topic.

Has anyone ever been wondering about that?

[Compass Rose]

[Dog Soldier]

Obstacles can be seen from normal LOS with FOW turned on. I have never seen minefields shown the way you describe if FOW is on. Only minefields owned by a side are revealed.

With FOW off, then all things are revealed.

If you could post an image of what you are seeing, I can tell better what is going on.

Dog Soldier

[Seisen]

Allright, this is from #0704_01 Gertsovka, first turn with the germans, russians are on automatic with FOW on.
Some russian minefields next to the railway are visible on the jump map.

[ComradeP]

Good job spotting the bug!

I never use the jump dialog (I don't feel using it is user friendly as you can't select units when it is activated due to it not being dynamic) so I never noticed this before.

The bug seems to be that minefields that are within friendly LOS at the start of the turn (they don't become visible after moving during a turn) become visible on the jump map (minefields on "?" hexes, hexes with units or hexes with objectives are not visible because the indicator for those things is "on top" of the minefield indicator).

Amusing bug. It also applies to obstacles and other map objects, by the way.

Oh, and welcome to the Blitz!

[Dog Soldier]

I have checked this. It has to do with only hexes visible to the other side at the start of any turn.

This seems to be a graphics bug. Thank you Seisen for reporting it. We will get it fixed.

Dog Soldier

[Dog Soldier]

FWIW,

On a game note, any player can open a scenario without FOW and see where the minefields are. When playing the scenario a gamer can use this foreknowledge. In designing the game, we stayed as close to historical accuracy as could with the game mechanics from the sources listed in the game's bibliography. Peeking, to see where the mines are will not give an attacking player any kind of decisive edge. Where mines are present, they are in legion. The defending player knows full well where they are. It will not be too hard for the defending player to see the attacking player behaving as if they know where the mines are. Adjusting the defense to deal with this new paradigm is not that difficult. In fact, the attacker is now the one at a disadvantage. The attacker will have, by this behavior telegraphed where he is going, the path of least number of mines being the primary determination in the attackers plans. Confident in this knowledge, makes the defensive response an easier job. Reserves can go to a predictable place. That is more powerful advantage for the defense than any 'peeking' advantage from the jump dialog.

The number one purpose of minefields is to channel the attacker into a kill zone. Think about that when considering what a great deal it is to use the jump dialog to see some of the mines. It really is not the advantage it seems.

I have a few additional things to say about this issue. It is a bug, IMHO. However, it is not as much use as one would think from reading this thread.

There are a lot of mines at Kursk. This is historical. The Soviet defenses were prepared in depth over many months. A player cannot avoid mines. Proper period tactics require a player to have his engineers in the lead, or at least very close to the front edge to deal with the mines.

Axis casualties from stumbling into minefields in actual game play are far less than what players will experience in playing the game. As players we are over cautious about mines. Even if this bug was not there, one can guess where the mines are.
The minefields are always in front of a fortified (bunkers as opposed to just trenches and improved positions) defensive line. The minefields do extend to the sides of the forward Soviet positions in a fortified position with an exit hex or two for retreat to the next line of defense. This is very common in the game's attempt to simulate the feel of attacking strong, well prepared defensive lines as existed at Kursk. Seeing the position of the mines in the jump map should not be a surprise, just a confirmation of what most people would expect. The Germans expected minefields. They provided for a lot engineers to the assault units to clear paths through the mines. Losses from mines are not what will determine winning or losing a scenario.

Finally, a minefield that is not covered by fire is useless anyways. Without fire power to cover a minefield, it is little more than a speed bump. A Russian player knows this and will target the German engineers as often as possible. Russian players will also target any other units held up by a minefield. Whether the German units are in the minefield or stuck just behind a belt of minefields makes no difference. They will be fired upon just a much by the defense.

Here is an image of the mines at Gertsovka from the AAR here at the blitz. They are extensive. An attacking German player cannot avoid them.


Dog Soldier

[Aaron]

Good spot Seisen.

[Seisen]

Very interesting discussion Dog Soldier!

[ComradeP]

I would disagree that mines are "legion". For balance reasons, I believe, they're all level 1 and minefields tend to more or less stick to the same density in terms of hexes covered all along the line with the exception of bunkers.

Yes, you could think of the way with the fewest minefields as being the most likely avenue of approach, but in most cases the player will pick a path that will also be the shortest to begin with. Turn limits are currently quite tight, and advancing through areas of the map where minefields are poorly defended (like map edges) will just mean you lose as the Axis. In fact, in most maps there are numerous "safer" approaches where you as the Soviets can simply calculate that the Axis are unlikely to get enough VP's to win from objectives.

Soviet air recon is poor, and in big scenarios sending your reserves as the Soviets (if they're not Fixed) to a certain part of the map too early will just favour the Axis as their recon capabilities are battle. The terrain and turn limits are such that just from looking at the map, you know where the fighting is likely to happen. You don't have strategic freedom, it's an operational level game and you often only have 1 or 2 approaches to take.

As the Soviets, you often don't have many non-Fixed units, if any. Moving the forces forwards early as the Soviets is in my opinion a losing strategy. You're essentially gambling. Moving your forces to where you think the Axis will attack is quite different from moving to meet an actual threat. You know little about Axis strength, don't know when the bulk of their forces will arrive at your lines or their preferred point of attack. Keeping your reserves somewhat behind the frontline is often good enough.

Axis individual units are so superior to yours that simply sending men into the meatgrinder like you would on the strategic scale will quickly burn through your reserves for no real gain unless you can pile them into bunkers. The average SS battalion moves through a D quality Rifle battalion at such a rate and with such force that the Rifle battalion might as well not be there. With your units at such a disadvantage, keeping reserves at a point where they can't be immediately targeted and where you decided when to commit them is essential. Responding to the enemy on the enemy's terms is likely to lose you the game.

For me, the minefields and obstacles are just speedbumps no matter what. They're not strong enough to truly slow down the Germans and your units are often not good enough to make good use of the situation. German A quality pioniere are also very unlikely to be disrupted even at platoon level unless targeted by a massive amount of fire.

It takes some getting used to, but even at Kursk the usual Soviet strategic scale tactic of drawing the Axis in and slowly attriting them before attacking them with a larger force still applies, but it can be difficult to do.