France 14 - Now where is that HKK 3?

[BigDuke66]

Hi
I was looking through some map material of a huge German publication that is available online(Der Weltkrieg 1914 bis 1918) and what caught my attention was that the German HKK 3 and its divisions seem to be missing when comparing this map(Operationen der deutschen 6. und 7. Armee) with the following scenarios.
1914_0820_01s: Von Moltke's Indecisiveness
1914_0822_01s: Home Before the Leaves Fall
The later scenario even sets a withdrawal date for the 8. KD but that division like the rest of the HKK 3 isn't in the scenario, neither on map nor as reinforcements.

So is the HKK 3 missing by accident?

[Volcano Man]

Well, you are testing my memory now, but IIRC HKK.3 was off the map to the east, at Mülhausen and fighting in Alsace. The corps entrained and was sent to the Eastern Front and never actually appeared on the F14 map. 1/2 of the corps arrived arrived in time to participate in the 2nd Masurian Lakes (8.KD if I recall) and the other 1/2 arrived afterwards and participated together as HKK.3 in Lodz with the addition of some other Austro-Hungarian cavalry division. This corps appears in EP14. Also, it optionally appears in the F14 grand campaign, depending on the choices made.

So no, it is not a mistake. ;)

[BigDuke66]

Well what a quick search brought was that at least the Bavarian KD was slightly off the eastern map edge on the 11th August and that the 7. KD was even East of the Bavarian KD but by the 20th the situation seems very different.
See this map:

It looks like the German line was much further back but the text indicates that the French 2nd Army bumped into advancing Germans so that the German where further than the map shows, but besides that you can see that the 8. KD was in front of the 5. & 6. b. ID who are the most Western forces and the b. KD was North-West of the 31. ID what is the most Eastern force in the "1914_0820_01s: Von Moltke's Indecisiveness" scenario.
The HKK 3 itself isn't on the map but I assume it has be be somewhere near it's subordinate units.

So for "1914_0820_01s: Von Moltke's Indecisiveness" it's likely that at least the 8. KD & b. KD should be there, with the 7. KD coming in not before the 21st August as it was noted that it stayed South-East of the AOK 6 on 20th August.


For the campaign scenario "1914_0822_01s: Home Before the Leaves Fall" the HKK 3 should start on map and it should withdraw not later than mid September leaving the Bavarian and 7. KD in the West, the withdrawal of the 8. KD is already in the withdrawal list of that scenario what makes it very likely you intended to have it in the scenario right from the start.


Maybe interesting too is this graphic showing th French 1st and 2nd Army:

[Volcano Man]

Well, from a scenario design point of view, look at where the 7th and 8th KD is by the 25th; they are exactly along the map edge (the red isolated blob above them is Manonviller, which marks the edge of the map).

These two divisions cannot be added to the campaign or its sub scenarios IMO, because the user would not use them along the map, where they were arguably just holding/screening between the 6. and 7. Armee boundaries. The user would have absolutely no reason to use them in this way, and would have them racing about the countryside, or would transfer them to another army (in the campaign). And it also makes no sense to just put them on the map and fix them in place either since the Germans are advancing.

So no, I still do not think HKK.3 (at least the 7 & 8.KD) should be present in the Home Before the Leaves fall campaign or the Nancy scenario. However, I suppose one could argue that at the very least the bayer.KD should be present in all of them, especially since it remained after HKK.3 was withdrawn. Also, maybe the 8.KD could/should be present in the grand campaign and then withdrawn once it moved towards the map edge. I will look into that, but again the latter decision relies more on how it would be used than whether it literally be present...

[Volcano Man]

Ah I see why I didn't add the 8.KD to the Nancy scenario...

As far as my sources show, the 8.KD, although near Metz, actually didn't do much of anything in the battle except sit in place an screen in case the French were to attack towards Metz from the south. Once the 6.Armee offensive began, the 8.KD moved east to the 6. and 7. Armee boundary and covered it until it was withdrawn around the 25th or so. So, I think I will still leave the 7. and 8.KD out of all scenarios, but at the very least I will put something in the notes about it to serve as a reminder. I guess I just forgot to mention it.

However, I think I will add the b.KD to all scenarios; I guess I got confused some years ago and though the entire HKK.3 was withdrawn for the Eastern Front, but now after making EP14, I know that it was less the b.KD (which makes sense, the Bavarians would not have allowed their forces to be split up, at least in the early campaign). :)

[Volcano Man]

OK, I dug around in my notes for hours and I think I will make the following changes in the next update:

#1914_0822_01s_Campaign_Early:
I will add only the b.KD, because by this time both 7.KD and 8.KD are either off the map or on the map edge. b.KD will remain for the duration of the campaign also (I just simply overlooked this by accident in v1.0).

#Grand_Campaign_F14-A:
I will add 8.KD and b.KD. Currently they are actually there, but not under the 1912 and 1914 German war plans though. Adding the b.KD was obvious, but I felt that adding the 8.KD would be "nice" given how early the scenario starts.

#1914_0820_01s_Nancy:
I will add 8.KD and b.KD after all. Again, b.KD is an obvious addition, but I thought it would be better to just add the 8.KD also and have it withdraw on the morning of the 22nd (which would signify its move to the map edge). At least you could use it for two days first, which could be helpful in the Cheminot area. I recall now that when I was first creating F14, I was against adding the 8.KD to the scenario because I did not want it a-historically used for the duration of the scenario because the user has no incentive to move it to the east edge of the map. So, I will balance this by simply having it withdraw on the morning of the 22nd, problem solved. :)

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Of course the great pain in the original design process was that this corps was not only withdrawn, but split up, and also (for the most part) situated on the map edge and off map. A perfect storm of misery. Anyway, thanks for the info. :)

[BigDuke66]

My pleasure, besides the entertainment that these games provide it's a good way to gain knowledge about the Western Campaign in 1914.

Now I already apologize for some headache for you.
Regarding the #1914_0822_01s_Campaign_Early scenario, take a look at this map:

You see by the 27th August the 7. KD and 8. KD back on the right(West) flank of the 6. Armee, 7. KD at Chateau-Salins and 8. KD South-East of it. And by the 5th September you see the b. KD & 7. KD covering the right(West) flank of the 6. Armee with HKK 3.
The 3rd Volume of the book series notes that by the 28th August there was the intention to unite the 3 cavalry divisions(b. KD, 7. KD, 8. KD) under the HKK 3 near Delme and that on the 28th the flank of the 6. Armee was secured by the HKK 3 with its divisions.
I suggest that at some point(27th-28th) in the Campaign the 7. KD and 8. KD should arrive on the South-Eastern map edge(maybe on the height of Luneville) and so be available to the German player as covering force that he has to move up to have something between Metz and his 6. Armee.

And regarding the 8. KD and its move to the Eastfront, it's noted that on 29th August OHL ordered the the 8. KD to prepare for the withdrawal to the East and that on 31st August 8. KD was removed from HKK 3 and the position it held was taken over by the 7. KD.
So I suggest to use the 31st as withdrawal date for the 8. KD.


I haven't checked #Grand_Campaign_F14-A but maybe the same things I just mentioned are reasonable here too.


The adjustments for the cavalry in #1914_0820_01s_Nancy sounds great, as for their starting positions I have read that the 8. KD was on the "Delmer Rücken"(likely the high ground north of Delme) on 9.30 in the morning and that the Bavarian cavalry division was only able to reach the same area by afternoon.

While I was looking through the German forces in this scenario I couldn't oversee that the 6. b. ID just like the 10. and 4. Ersatz-Division are fixed till the 21st, don't see a reason for this, the 6. b. ID had its attack order like the rest of the III b. Korps and the 10. Ersatz moved over Han(likely Han sur-Nied) and reached the "Delmer Rücken" just like the b. KD by afternoon but was tired because it had marched since 4.00 in the morning, and the 4. Ersatz had already a part(6 battalions, 2 squadrons, 5 batteries) of its forces under control of the II b. Korps.
If you are worried about an overweight in German forces I suggest to remove the I Bavarian Korps(Not the Bavarian reserve corps, that is OK) instead as it doesn't look like this corps ever went far enough West to appear on the map, it was under control of the 7. Armee and on the border to the 6. Armee.

Another suggestion concerns the 33. Reserve Division, it was coming out of Metz and had order to reach the line between Cheminot and Nomeny and should come down the roads left and right of "Feste Wagner", currently one column comes down the road much further west at the Moselle river.
Also it should start the scenario on map as the text further notes that the 8. KD was on the "Delmer Rücken"(likely the high ground north of Delme) and by 9.30 in the morning it made contact with the Metz Reserve near Nomeny, what means the columns of 33. Reserve Division should start on the roads just south of the excluded Metz fortress area.


And thanks Ed that you still work on these scenarios.

[Volcano Man]

So I suggest to use the 31st as withdrawal date for the 8. KD.

No, sorry, everything I have points to the 8.KD being pulled out of the line on August 28th, moved towards the rear to prepare for rail movement. Rail movement didn't happen in hours or even a day, they were pulled from the line and moved to a specific location and waited there. When they actually got on the trains is irrelevant (it could have been days later).

In regards to the cavalry, I really do not see any need to do anything further than what I have described. It does not matter that the 7. and 8.KD were actually on the map edge to hold it down or not, the fact is that a human player has no incentive to do this, so putting all the divisions at their disposal would only encourage them to transfer the entire HKK.3 to another armee where it would be infinitely more useful, or use it west of Metz to flank the French 2e Armee. Sorry but this is not something I want to allow from a scenario design point of view, so I will go no further there, which is already well beyond what I originally intended (except for the missing b.KD which was a mistake). If you disagree, then all I can suggest is to make your own modified scenario.

As for the other Nancy issues, I am well aware of the things you mentioned and I may go back and revisit the whole Nancy scenario at some point, but it is simply a case of working with what you have available at the time the game is being created. It could have been that I did not have good source maps of the original battle, but I cannot really totally redo and revisit every scenario - I have to move on and make the next game. Still, it is one of those things I have always meant to do (revisiting Nancy with better maps like this) and maybe I will get around to doing it at some point. ;)

[BigDuke66]

As mentioned OHL ordered the 8. KD on 29th to prepare for transport to the East, at least till then they were in the line.


As for the campaign, yea maybe it is best to keep the forces from 6. Armee as low as possible, the German player has now already the possibility to fall back and take a line running from Feste Wagner over Delme and Chateau Salins to the map edge what would allow him to free considerable forces for redeployment to the West, that was what historically happened but OHL ordered on 9th September to do that what is at the end of the early campaign.


I understand that reworking the old stuff is problematic especially with a new game on your do-to list, on the other hand the extensive fix list of the last patch with all the adjustments for a better gameplay shows the continuing dedication to improve older games(what often is a lack in todays gaming industry) and that will surely repay itself with rising number of gamers that join this series.
Besides that the rework might also be beneficial for games that depict the West in 1915 and for the series in general, what is fixed in older games might be right in from the start in newer games, wouldn't be the first time this happens within a John Tiller game series.


If you need some help I would be happy to support you, surely not as scenario designer as I have only done some rework of old scenarios for other(none JT) games but regarding Beta testing, feedback and historicity I provided a lot since the early 2000s for various war games.

[Volcano Man]

And as mentioned, my source data used on both F14 and EP14 states that 8.KD was pulled out of the line on the 28th, to prepare for rail movement. This is not a pissing match, I am just saying that I am going to stick with my data there because I know, after about eight years of researching this stuff, that "rail movement" happened over a period of weeks. ;) Preparation means withdrawal from the line, gather things together and rest, and reorganize the units for administrative purposes, not prepare to withdraw from the line. It meant that although the unit might still be in the area, it was off limits to use and was to await further instructions from OHL.

And in regards to strategic rail movement in general, a train didn't just show up at their location and they walked on and steamed away, they were ear marked for rail movement, then pulled back locally, then pulled back to a rear area, then moved to a rail head of assignment, then sat and waited for days on occasion. Then got on the train, move down the tracks about 10 miles, stopped on a siding for hours to wait for the track ahead to clear, then repeat. Non mobilization rail movement was not clockwork and the difference between the 28th and 29th is one so small that I prefer to go with the earliest out of the benefit of the doubt, to cover the preparatory withdrawal because, again, the user will just be assaulting and attacking forward until they magically board the trains or until it physically left the map.

In game design, removing a unit from the map is not always representing its physical presence; when I make scenarios it often represents the fact that it no longer falls under the command of the user, and has been assigned a mission by higher HQ to pull back, or at the very least that the user should take his grubby hands off of the unit and stop using it to spearhead an attack, knowing that it will be removed soon. This is the case here, of course the 8.KD was still in the area but again you have to force the user to use it properly and that is what the withdrawal represents.

Don't worry, I am well aware of the fact that reworking scenarios are a good thing, as I said it is directly dependent on available time. Out of necessity, these things are lowest priority but as you said yourself, F14 has been continually updated so it is not a question of "if" - it is a question of "when".

And thanks for the offer for help, but that isn't the bottleneck. I would still have to go over the scenario myself and check everything. It is very easy to just move units around on the map - the hard part is balancing it and that is something that takes time and something that I would need to do anyway if it were reworked. Maybe you can join the testing team for the next title in the series when the time comes (when recruiting begins). That isn't for some time yet though. ;)

Unfortunately I also do not have a lot of time to be distracted by too many forum discussions - my spare time is getting more and more scarce lately - but the previous information about the missing b.KD is appreciated. Thanks.