Panzer Battles - Kursk Version 1.01 released

[Richie61]

Every game system will have proponents and detractors, only the individual can decide whether the subject matter is for them.

David

Agree!

[ComradeP]

I might in some ways be one of the loudest critics on these forums, but I'm still playing and I'll buy the next game on the day it is released provided I have access to an internet connection on that day. There's no "if such and such things would change" in there. If this were an awful start of a series, I wouldn't be here posting about it and would've dropped it months ago. The vast majority of the arguments and discussions here are aimed at improving the game, even though that might at times not be clear at first glance.

I don't feel tank vs. tank or tank vs. gun combat is all it can be, and I'm not a fan of the fairly non-lethal nature of tank vs. tank combat on a tank for tank basis, but all of those things will be ironed out in the future.

The bonus for firing downhill changes the game substantially from a statistical perspective, so I'm looking forward to Ozerovskii in terms of seeing how masses of armour work against an opponent with inferior tanks (in terms of hard attack values) but in good positions.

I don't feel the Soviets should be weak and useless or that Tiger tanks should be able to kill anything at their leisure, on the contrary I feel the Soviets are a bit too weak/useless when not in bunkers currently (for example: in State farm, removing the first line D quality Rifle units and replacing them with well-hidden spotters and the mortar regiment in a less suicidal position would in all likeliness result in an increase in German casualties, those D quality Rifle units really might as well not be there) but I do feel the Germans don't have their necessary edge in quality for armoured combat. There are certainly instances where they can get swamped through proper use of Soviet assets in situations which historically didn't result in high German losses for good quality units. Casualties will always be higher in a wargame than in real life, which makes it important for the side with fewer units or in this case: fewer vehicles to get their historical bang for their buck.

The current system doesn't necessarily give a lot of room for that, as opportunity fire is still fairly rare (on a tank for tank basis, infantry opportunity fire is fine at the moment) and you can move adjacent to enemy units with relative ease and do some damage (with C quality units), so there is in my opinion room for an improvement there, but not so much that good quality units suddenly become invincible against hordes of mediocre units. They should still be vulnerable, just a bit less so than is currently the case.

I feel the assault system could be improved, as there are times when it more or less doesn't work well, but all things considered I support the ruleset and the direction the game is going.

I don't regret spending the money to buy the game or the hours I spent playing it so far, even though some of those hours were not entirely pleasant.

It's certainly not a bad title in the sense that it just doesn't work, as it works in many ways, just not in all ways that it could work in at the moment, but which it will in the future.

[Xaver]

Well, maybe the problem with AT combat is how quality in german tanks is not represented in long range combat because soviets can neutralize it very easy with a short ride to close range in a simple turn with no penalties to destroy german tanks in close range very fast.

Part of the problem is that you as human can chose close range allways but not oposite, if you want attack enemy at range you need move in range but you cant retreat in enemy turn to prevent heavy casualties when he try close range (i can move my tanks to a 4 hex range, have a not very profitable turn in enemy casualties BUT he can close range on his turn side and damage your snipers at close combat with no casualties when do the ride to close range)... maybe here i like see something like in FOG and skirmisher units rules... you can set if they stand, retreat 1 hex when enemy close range or mantein a certain number of hexes between you and enemy.

I know that 2 Tigers are not invincible BUT in a 1 hour range duel at 1000m only destroy 1 T-34 from a company of 10... AND when after lose the tank close range in 1 turn to destroy both Tigers in same turn with no casualties.... you cant sell as historical that 2 tigers only destroy 1 T-34 in 90 minutes and be at same time destroyed in flat terrain with no cover for attacker T-34s BUT with both Tigers in good defensive positions.

I plan buy PzB2 first day but i know what are the game limitations in AT combat and they are engine limitations because simple now cant represent in a correct way the tactical fights using AT units, in the long battle results are "historical" but more because with no recover factors and after infantry suffer a lot you need use tanks more and expose them more in combat and suffer more casualties when in real life they stay in 2nd line.

Steel Panthers III was at same scale than PzB but offer more details in the armored combat by far and work better, same with Campaign Series.

[Bayes]

Agree with your diagnosis, Xaver (assuming more tactical games like Combat Mission, etc., are correctly modeling tank vs. tank combat)… On the other hand, maybe the advancing T-34s are using the terrain to avoid direct duels with the Tigers...

Anyway, enjoy the game a lot - but sometimes miss setting up truly deadly fire zones or ambushes (but maybe Combat Mission/Squad Battles is the place for that). The new elevation difference bonus helps, though.

Have not fully tried out Command Ops. How does tank combat work there?

Well, maybe the problem with AT combat is how quality in german tanks is not represented in long range combat because soviets can neutralize it very easy with a short ride to close range in a simple turn with no penalties to destroy german tanks in close range very fast.

Part of the problem is that you as human can chose close range allways but not oposite, if you want attack enemy at range you need move in range but you cant retreat in enemy turn to prevent heavy casualties when he try close range (i can move my tanks to a 4 hex range, have a not very profitable turn in enemy casualties BUT he can close range on his turn side and damage your snipers at close combat with no casualties when do the ride to close range)... maybe here i like see something like in FOG and skirmisher units rules... you can set if they stand, retreat 1 hex when enemy close range or mantein a certain number of hexes between you and enemy.

I know that 2 Tigers are not invincible BUT in a 1 hour range duel at 1000m only destroy 1 T-34 from a company of 10... AND when after lose the tank close range in 1 turn to destroy both Tigers in same turn with no casualties.... you cant sell as historical that 2 tigers only destroy 1 T-34 in 90 minutes and be at same time destroyed in flat terrain with no cover for attacker T-34s BUT with both Tigers in good defensive positions.

I plan buy PzB2 first day but i know what are the game limitations in AT combat and they are engine limitations because simple now cant represent in a correct way the tactical fights using AT units, in the long battle results are "historical" but more because with no recover factors and after infantry suffer a lot you need use tanks more and expose them more in combat and suffer more casualties when in real life they stay in 2nd line.

Steel Panthers III was at same scale than PzB but offer more details in the armored combat by far and work better, same with Campaign Series.

[ComradeP]

Have not fully tried out Command Ops. How does tank combat work there?

Ground elements within a unit fire at an enemy unit, with realistic penetration, armour and range values for their equipment type.

[wiggum]

I hope they make some major improvements for Panzer Battles 2 and maybe choose a scenario which is not so much about Tanks and AT guns...

Next week i will buy the complete Command Ops 2 bundle that includes:
Highway to the Reich (Market Garden)
Ride of the Valkries (Norther Bulge)
Bastogne (Southern Bulge)
Foothills of the Gods (Greece)
The Cauldron (Mediterranean).

...for just $49.99
http://forums.lnlpublishing.com/threads/...-soon.998/
Its just a "must have" for every wargamer at the moment.

[ComradeP]

Of those modules, it looks like only the last one is actually new, so you're paying 50 dollars for a single truly new datapack instead of 30.

The price of each engine upgrade also went up by 20 dollars compared to the plans as detailed at Matrix. They've certainly become more commercial than before.

I'm not impressed. The releases of new modules are seriously delayed and now cost more than before.

I also don't like Battlefront-style pricing schemes of paying for engine upgrades. It makes little sense. You'll pay good money for it over time just to stay up to date. It feels too much like paying for the same thing twice: most other companies just include engine upgrades in the next expansion.

I hope you enjoy it, though.

-

David: Any news on whether the visibility air limit in scenarios with less than 4 air units for a side is working as intended?

[wiggum]

If you did not buy all those moduls already its a great deal.
The base game (Bulge) alone was 50$ at the Matrix store...
I dont like paying for engine updates either but i think you just cant compare the new Panzer Battles Patch with a Combat Mission or Command Ops 2 engine update bacause they will include new features and not just fixes and some number/rule book changes.

[Strela]

I dont like paying for engine updates either but i think you just cant compare the new Panzer Battles Patch with a Combat Mission or Command Ops 2 engine update bacause they will include new features and not just fixes and some number/rule book changes.

Wiggum WTF?

You don't own Panzer Battles (do you?) how the hell would you know that the patch does not 'include new features and not just fixes and some number/rule book changes'???

I have no issue when people come in here and make informed comments, but when they start pointing out flaws for a game they don't own - that's down right wrong...

Please don't influence others when you don't know what you're talking about.

David

[wiggum]

Sorry Strela, no offense.
But i think the "Engine" of all John Tiller Games is quiet old and never got really updated.
What they did was just include more or other rules to fit the theater, size and time frame.