Black Sea Discussions

[GAZNZ]

I also ran tests against APS-equipped Abrams and T-90's, and as was expected, ALL types of ATGM's were usually shot down every time, even the Javelin was sometimes shot down by APS (below)

Interesting
I've never ever seen a JAV I've fired miss.
And vs opponents i had one miss my tank i was reversing - it maybe hit but it wasnt clear as it as moving back
there was no pen but that was it.
I have been using US abrams tanks but not using APS ones so my opponents have a chance in most games. I take 1 APS out of 4 tanks for example.
The patch will fix alot of problems so it will be interesting to see.

Javelins were designed to defeat russian armour protection systems so I''m not surprised they are generally not stopped.

Thanks for the posts Spike.
interesting.

[PoorOldSpike]

Thanks mate, the ATGM facts and figures in this thread will help me and other players decide which missile to buy when we're shopping around, I think we all have different preferences.
The Javelin is king of course because it kills nearly every time it hits, plus it can be fired from buildings, plus it has no laser to warn the enemy, but the other missiles are a mixed bag each with their pros and cons.
Here are the price tags with Regular Experience/ Normal motivation/ Fit/ 0 Leadership/ no rarity-

Data deleted as obsolete see chart in post #26

[raz_atoth]

Good idea, POS, about using the 'Force Adjustment' param to even things a bit. I'll suggest it to my opps, if i'll try a blue vs red battle.

[raz_atoth]

One observation about ATGMs and APSs which i guess is worth making. The Russian APSs DON'T intercept top attacks. So if an AFV with APS is hit by a Javelin/TOW missile it's as good as dead as one without.

For this reason, if you're playing as the russian player in a QB against the US, save yourself the points spend on APS.

[A Canadian Cat]

Very interesting stuff in here. A comment one other change mentioned in the 1.03 patch summary is that missiles fired from helos and attack aircraft will come in at a steeper angle of attack. That could be a helpful asset for the Russians when shooting up M1s. Mind you the Trophy APS system also protects from the top so that will not get around the APS to powerful problem but they will have much better luck punching through the top armour of the M1 than the front.

[PoorOldSpike]

ATGM at-a-glance chart



Old hands will already know much of this stuff, but I try to make my posts noob-friendly to CMBS newcomers.
I've put all the facts and figures from earlier posts and tests into the chart to help us easily choose what to buy, a bit like a page from a mail order Thai bride catalogue.
The chart is divided by a vertical black line; the 4 columns to the left of it are the all-important vital statistics which we need to know; and the 5 columns to the right are nice to know but not strictly essential.

THE most vital column is the Kills/Hits column, as it tells us what the approx results will be out of every 10 shots against frontal naked armour (ie not protected by APS systems) of the T-90AM and Abrams SEP.
For example the Javelin rates 8/1, meaning it'll kill a T-90AM 8 times out of 10 shots, and hit it once causing damage, and miss once.
At the opposite end of the scale, most of the Russian ATGM's have a 0/9 rating, meaning they can't kill an Abrams SEP frontally, but will hit it 9 times and miss once.
Important- EVERY HIT WILL CAUSE CUMULATIVE DAMAGE even if the tank isn't killed outright, for example 4 Russian ATGM's splattered against the front of this Abrams causing terrible damage and immobilisation even though they didn't penetrate-



The other 3 "vital info" columns on the left of the chart are-
1- whether they can be fired from buildings
2- whether they have laser guidance (lasers might alert the enemy, allowing him to pop smoke)
(Incidentally, the PDF manual says the Javelin and TOW have IR/radio and Radio/wire guidance respectively but I'm not sure if that means there are different models of each in the game.
As regards wire-guided missiles, they're reputedly harder to jam by enemy countermeasures.)
3- ranges.

Of the 5 right-hand columns, the most important column is 'Auto-Dep' because it tells us that most of the ATGM's will automatically deploy when the team stops moving, i.e. we don't have to issue a 'Deploy weapon' order because they'll deploy themselves.
The only one that MUST be ordered to deploy is the TOW, as it won't deploy itself.
(Whd stands for warhead calibre)
Costs are for Regular experience, normal Motivation, Fit, 0 Leadership.
Incidentally some missiles are flagged as 'Semi-deployed' during play, it simply means you can either leave them like that and they WILL fire, but for more accuracy you can order them to 'Deploy weapon' and they'll put it on a small tripod.

The 'Top att' column simply informs us which missiles target the thinner top armour.

Which shall we buy? Well for the American player it's a no-brainer, as the Javelin is king!
For Ukrainian players the SKIF is the best bet (although they can also buy Russian-import ATGM's if they like.)
Russian players have a varied choice, the AT-14 Kornet is the only one that could punch clean through an Abrams front armour in tests, but it only happens rarely. Its laser also alerts the enemy.
So I think I'd plump for the AT-13 Saxhorn2, but no doubt everybody has their own preferences.

Footnote- as I mentioned, the Kills/Hits figures in the chart are against T-90AM's and Abrams SEP's with NO APS systems.
I ran tests against the APS-equipped versions and found that most missiles were intercepted and shot down by APS about 7 times out of every 10 shots; the remaining 3 either scored a damaging hit or missed.
HOWEVER the Javelin is in a league of its own against APS, killing the tank about 6 times out of 10, the other 4 resulting in a mix of damaging hits, interceptions by APS, or the odd complete miss.
(One last thing- the Kill/Hits figures will fluctuate during actual games depending on weather, day or night, crew experience and so on.)

[raz_atoth]

Just a small note, POS. I think i saw mentioned that with the upcoming patch, it'll also be possible to fire the AT-14 from inside the buildings. So, i guess for all practical purposes, you can change the above table even from now :)

[PoorOldSpike]

Yes, I could have waited for the patch to come out but I might have been waiting forever, you know how patch release dates for all games have a habit of missing the deadline.
When it comes out I'll simply run the tests again and edit in the new info..:)

[PoorOldSpike]

HOLLOW OBJECTIVE SQUARES AGAIN
Aargh, me and my opponent Hypaspist have just thrown a load of objective points away because we forgot to have units sitting on some yellow borders at the end of the game!
It confirms what I said in the first page of this thread about how you get zilch points if you're inside the hollow square, and it's such an important thing that I'll post the following screenies to explain it for newcomers-

This is our endgame screen..



And this is how the map looked at the end, I'm the Americans. (I've labelled the objectives A to D)..



my score. The yellow tick tells me I've only got points for the Village D, yet in the map pic above, I've also got American units in West Farm C but I get no points for it!

[PoorOldSpike]

These pics explain what happened-
I've got units on the yellow border of the Village D, so I get points for it..



But I've got no units on the border of West Farm C, they're inside the square in the houses, so I get no points there! Obviously I should have crept them out of the houses onto the border in the last couple of turns but completely forgot! Maybe I subconsciously had a quote of Bilbo Baggins at the back of my mind-
"It's a dangerous business going out your door"



Hypaspist forgot too on his side of the map, here's his endgame score sheet, note he only gets points for the East Forest B..



because he's got units sitting on the border..



..but he gets no points for East Farm A because he's got no units on the border, they're inside the square!
I don't think either of us are likely to make that basic mistake again..;)