Napoleon in Russia Project

[BigDuke66]

Just wonder what problem you have with Waterloo and Borodino, can't really understand how you can designated Waterloo battle & campaign as "fantasy scenarios", there surely can be different points of view to a battle & campaign but these views likely depend on the sources you chose to form your view, but I wonder on what source the view that they are fantasy is based on.

Regarding charges, in the HPS/JTS series you simply order a charge but that alone doesn't mean the cavalry units are charing a thousand yards or else the movement rates would have to be adjusted considerably, it's just the setup to do so because else such a cavalry unit could charge whenever they want what would be a too big tactical flexibility.

Now if one wants to experience Napoleonic wargaming he can surely bet on the HPS/JTS series, while not perfect(but what game is) they are very good games and make small improvements with each patch.
Of course a lot of what you undergo will depend on the optional rules you choose but also on the way you play these games, and some house rules can even improve the experience further.

While France 1914 and East Prussia 1914 are 2 very good titles(where at least France 14 needs some improvement & fixes in a bunch of scenario), they are operational games and totally unusable for fighting a Napoleonic battle in regards to scale(1km hex & 2 hour turns) so I can only recommend them for what they really cover, the First World War.

[jim pfleck]

It was my understanding that the map and deployments in the HPS Waterloo were based on more up to date scholarship than the Battleground version. I agree that Borodino could use some revisions, especially based on recent scholarship, especially by Alexander Mikaberidze...

[jonnymacbrown]

Just wonder what problem you have with Waterloo and Borodino, can't really understand how you can designated Waterloo battle & campaign as "fantasy scenarios", there surely can be different points of view to a battle & campaign but these views likely depend on the sources you chose to form your view, but I wonder on what source the view that they are fantasy is based on.

I posted this a while back but it's all too sadly true:
British and French deployments, as well as Prussian arrival routes are not based upon any known historical sources. It’s not like this information is hard to come by: Adkin's The Waterloo Companion is the best source for French (and other) deployments at Waterloo among others. Unfortunately HPS did not use John Tiller’s accurate historical scenario that he created for BGW; hence all historical scenarios in HPS Waterloo are a complete fantasy.

There is no doubt that Prince Jerome’s 6th Division launched the French attack at 1130 with an infantry assault and bombardment. A quick glance at the HPS historical scenario shows that 6th Division on the left is not anywhere near in position to attack anything, ensconced in a wood and more than 1000 yards away from the enemy. French 4th Division is on the right, on its way to someplace too; but who knows where? French IG is also on its way up the pike and French III & IV Cavalry Corps are not anywhere near where they were when finally deployed by Napoleon at 1130. In this historical set up, you are forced to attack the Hugomont orchid with Bachelu’s 5th Division, because the 9th and 6th Divisions are too far left and to the rear to do anything. In historical fact it was the 6th and 9th that led the initial II Corps assault with the 5th Division held in reserve. VI Corps is also too far to the rear and to the left; they were actually centrally located. This fact alone make the historical scenario completely wrong and impossible to use as an accurate simulation.

Prussian route of march is also madly askew; the first arrivals should be through Lasne, and not so far south. In this “historical” scenario everyone but the I Korps infantry and cavalry come on through Couture or south of there. This is clearly wrong as most arrivals marched through Lasne. It's all made up in the designer's own mind! The Prussians would and did take the more northern route through Lasne to avoid any possible interference from Grouchy. It’s all a fantasy, from a scenario designer noted for fantasy scenarios; and it creates insurmountable problems for any wargamer wishing to recreate a Napoleonic battle. In this ‘historical’ set up you are forced to begin moving everything at once, just to get into position to attack. In Napoleon’s actual deployments every unit in the French Army was in position to attack at 1130, or quickly assist the attack, without doing any addition movement. This is the essence of Napoleonic deployments and the game designer here didn't understand this and didn't care. jonny

[BigDuke66]

Well to the French 2nd corps, yes the left seems to "hang" a bit.
Likely the 6th and 9th division should run along the road west of where the 2nd cops CO is placed.

What's wrong with 4th Division? Seem its trying to place right of 3rd division like it should.

IG on its way up seems correct as it was still on the move.

Of course with the left hanging the 3rd Cav. Corps behind it is also to far south.

4th Cav Corps maybe a bit more West and closer to 1st corps.

Makes one wonder if maybe the starting time is wrong and 11:00 would be better, also if the speed modifier for the current light mud is too much because movement cost are at 150% what seems a bit much if it's only "light mud".

Anyhow all these are things that could need some more research and after that maybe an adjustment, still no reason to call it "fantasy", you could call it that way if Wellington sends is secret "my little pony" brigade forward or Napoleon sends in Asterix & Oberlix.

Overall the early games need a rework anyway to bring them down to the 10 minute turns that the later titles have and as these seem to work much better.

[agmoss99]

Maybe "historical inaccuracies" may be a better wording. I've read in previous threads that Waterloo and NRC in particular have such issues, with solid evidence put forward to back the claims. A lot depends on the information available and the game designer. I know Bill Peters, Rich White et al do a massive amount of research and work for their games.

[-72-]

I thought about it ... not worth it.

[jonnymacbrown]

Maybe "historical inaccuracies" may be a better wording. I've read in previous threads that Waterloo and NRC in particular have such issues, with solid evidence put forward to back the claims. A lot depends on the information available and the game designer. I know Bill Peters, Rich White et al do a massive amount of research and work for their games.

Yes they do a massive amount of research but they didn't work on this game. Charlie Crutshall is a noted fantasy designer and didn't do the work necessary to produce an historical scenario. He winged it and Rich Hamilton was asleep at the switch. jonny

[agmoss99]

I think we need to be a bit more tactful here guys.

[jonnymacbrown]

Well to the French 2nd corps, yes the left seems to "hang" a bit.
Likely the 6th and 9th division should run along the road west of where the 2nd cops CO is placed. What's wrong with 4th Division? Seem its trying to place right of 3rd division like it should. IG on its way up seems correct as it was still on the move.
Of course with the left hanging the 3rd Cav. Corps behind it is also to far south.
4th Cav Corps maybe a bit more West and closer to 1st corps.
Makes one wonder if maybe the starting time is wrong and 11:00 would be better,
Anyhow all these are things that could need some more research and after that maybe an adjustment, still no reason to call it "fantasy", you could call it that way if Wellington sends is secret "my little pony" brigade forward or Napoleon sends in Asterix & Oberlix.
Overall the early games need a rework anyway to bring them down to the 10 minute turns that the later titles have and as these seem to work much better.

The French Army wasn't on the move @ 1130. It was deployed. This is the most famous battle in history: Not only a massive amount of research has gone into it, but there are literally many hundreds of eyewitness accounts extant. In addition, the scenario has Wellington's Army all over the place too; I just don't want to get into that right now but what's the sense of playing an historical scenario when practically none of the units on either the Allied, Prussian or French side are accurately placed? You don't see things like this happen in Panzer Campaigns; there would be an uproar. jonny

[jonnymacbrown]

Well to the French 2nd corps, yes the left seems to "hang" a bit.
Likely the 6th and 9th division should run along the road west of where the 2nd cops CO is placed. What's wrong with 4th Division? Seem its trying to place right of 3rd division like it should. IG on its way up seems correct as it was still on the move.
Of course with the left hanging the 3rd Cav. Corps behind it is also to far south.
4th Cav Corps maybe a bit more West and closer to 1st corps.
Makes one wonder if maybe the starting time is wrong and 11:00 would be better,
Anyhow all these are things that could need some more research and after that maybe an adjustment, still no reason to call it "fantasy", you could call it that way if Wellington sends is secret "my little pony" brigade forward or Napoleon sends in Asterix & Oberlix.
Overall the early games need a rework anyway to bring them down to the 10 minute turns that the later titles have and as these seem to work much better.

The French Army wasn't on the move @ 1130. It was deployed. This is the most famous battle in history: Not only a massive amount of research has gone into it, but there are literally many hundreds of eyewitness accounts extant. In addition, the scenario has Wellington's Army all over the place too; I just don't want to get into that right now but what's the sense of playing an historical scenario when practically none of the units on either the Allied, Prussian or French side are accurately placed? You don't see things like this happen in Panzer Campaigns; there would be an uproar. jonny