Can you mod the map itself?

[phoenix]

Quick question, to which (since I haven't seen any modded maps) I guess the answer is no - but just to check. In PB Kursk, can I change the map itself, to improve it? For example, to double the distance between Gertsovka and the rail station (which is roughly half the distance it should be) by ironing out that odd kink in the line which shouldn't be there (indeed, generally, I wonder whether it would be possible to straighten out many sections of rail line which - as most railways do - simply ran straight in real life - the section from Komsomolets SF  to Oktiabrski SF springs to mind as a section that ran dead straight but which, for some reason, jags all over in the game map). So, I would like to go into a map editor, go over the entire map and straighten out bits of rail line, put in balkas that have been missed etc. Is that possible?

Cheers,

Peter

[Strela]

Quick question, to which (since I haven't seen any modded maps) I guess the answer is no - but just to check. In PB Kursk, can I change the map itself, to improve it? For example, to double the distance between Gertsovka and the rail station (which is roughly half the distance it should be) by ironing out that odd kink in the line which shouldn't be there (indeed, generally, I wonder whether it would be possible to straighten out many sections of rail line which - as most railways do - simply ran straight in real life - the section from Komsomolets SF  to Oktiabrski SF springs to mind as a section that ran dead straight but which, for some reason, jags all over in the game map). So, I would like to go into a map editor, go over the entire map and straighten out bits of rail line, put in balkas that have been missed etc. Is that possible?

Cheers,

Peter

Hi Peter,

We don't officially make available the map editor. That has been the policy across all Tiller's games.

That said, I'd be happy to consider fixing any glaring issues.

Where are you sourcing your information? Period maps or contemporary data?

The map was a conversion of the Panzer Campaigns map that was built off WW2 maps. That said, the game map was auto generated and we didn't check validity of train lines etc as they approximated the Panzer Campaigns map. There will be some distortion when auto generated.

David

[phoenix]

Quick question, to which (since I haven't seen any modded maps) I guess the answer is no - but just to check. In PB Kursk, can I change the map itself, to improve it? For example, to double the distance between Gertsovka and the rail station (which is roughly half the distance it should be) by ironing out that odd kink in the line which shouldn't be there (indeed, generally, I wonder whether it would be possible to straighten out many sections of rail line which - as most railways do - simply ran straight in real life - the section from Komsomolets SF  to Oktiabrski SF springs to mind as a section that ran dead straight but which, for some reason, jags all over in the game map). So, I would like to go into a map editor, go over the entire map and straighten out bits of rail line, put in balkas that have been missed etc. Is that possible?

Cheers,

Peter

Sorry. I can't work out how to get the images to show up in the posts, instead of you having to click on them.

Hi Peter,

We don't officially make available the map editor. That has been the policy across all Tiller's games.

That said, I'd be happy to consider fixing any glaring issues.

Where are you sourcing your information? Period maps or contemporary data?

The map was a conversion of the Panzer Campaigns map that was built off WW2 maps. That said, the game map was auto generated and we didn't check validity of train lines etc as they approximated the Panzer Campaigns map. There will be some distortion when auto generated.

David

Thanks David.  What a very kind offer.  The PC map of Kursk is actually more accurate than the PB map, I think. So the rail line into Prokhorovka in the PC game doesn't do an angular detour towards Oktiabrski, it runs much straighter. The oldest maps I have been able to find are soviet era and they place the rail lines in the places you can quite clearly see they ran (or still run along) in google earth, for example. I have not been able to find any detailed, accurate WW2 era maps, and would certainly love to see some that weren't ad hoc combat maps belonging to the various forces and drawn by the recon or survey units of either side.  In any case, all the little kinks that appeared in the rail lines for the PB title won't come from real maps, because that's not really the point of long distance rails - the idea is they run straight, and when the soviets were building them and massacring their own people in the millions to accommodate progress I very much doubt they got into planning disputes with farmers and private landowners than meant they had to build kinks in the lines. In PB even the roads run straighter, generally.

This kind of thing occurs all over the Kursk map:


  2 kinks.png (Size: 160.88 KB / Downloads: 24)

And it's hard to work out why rails would do this kind of thing (at Gertsovka) given the landscape we're dealing with. This is not steep switchback country:


  3 kinks.gif (Size: 382.28 KB / Downloads: 15)

When I put together a Prokhorovka map in another game, using many different map sources (though, as I said, the only available period map sources were combat maps), the relevant bit it looked like this:


  31a.gif (Size: 379.96 KB / Downloads: 21)

I think that is more accurate, and looks, indeed, more like the oldest maps I've seen. Again, it's hard to work out why a rail line wouldn't be straight, or as straight as possible. I had thought there must be a reason for the kinks, to do with the hexes. I realise it's not going to look as natural in a hex format, but still this piece of battlefield is so famous that I myself would really like to see it without the rails meandering needlessly.

If I had the map editor and I could learn to use it easily I would happily go over such prominent parts of the battlefield and suggest corrections for you to approve, time allowing.

Peter

[phoenix]

Quick question, to which (since I haven't seen any modded maps) I guess the answer is no - but just to check. In PB Kursk, can I change the map itself, to improve it? For example, to double the distance between Gertsovka and the rail station (which is roughly half the distance it should be) by ironing out that odd kink in the line which shouldn't be there (indeed, generally, I wonder whether it would be possible to straighten out many sections of rail line which - as most railways do - simply ran straight in real life - the section from Komsomolets SF  to Oktiabrski SF springs to mind as a section that ran dead straight but which, for some reason, jags all over in the game map). So, I would like to go into a map editor, go over the entire map and straighten out bits of rail line, put in balkas that have been missed etc. Is that possible?

Cheers,

Peter

Sorry. I can't work out how to get the images to show up in the posts, instead of you having to click on them.

Hi Peter,

We don't officially make available the map editor. That has been the policy across all Tiller's games.

That said, I'd be happy to consider fixing any glaring issues.

Where are you sourcing your information? Period maps or contemporary data?

The map was a conversion of the Panzer Campaigns map that was built off WW2 maps. That said, the game map was auto generated and we didn't check validity of train lines etc as they approximated the Panzer Campaigns map. There will be some distortion when auto generated.

David

Thanks David.  What a very kind offer.  The PC map of Kursk is actually more accurate than the PB map, I think. So the rail line into Prokhorovka in the PC game doesn't do an angular detour towards Oktiabrski, it runs much straighter. The oldest maps I have been able to find are soviet era and they place the rail lines in the places you can quite clearly see they ran (or still run along) in google earth, for example. I have not been able to find any detailed, accurate WW2 era maps, and would certainly love to see some that weren't ad hoc combat maps belonging to the various forces and drawn by the recon or survey units of either side.  In any case, all the little kinks that appeared in the rail lines for the PB title won't come from real maps, because that's not really the point of long distance rails - the idea is they run straight, and when the soviets were building them and massacring their own people in the millions to accommodate progress I very much doubt they got into planning disputes with farmers and private landowners than meant they had to build kinks in the lines. In PB even the roads run straighter, generally.

This kind of thing occurs all over the Kursk map:



And it's hard to work out why rails would do this kind of thing (at Gertsovka) given the landscape we're dealing with. This is not steep switchback country:



When I put together a Prokhorovka map in another game, using many different map sources (though, as I said, the only available period map sources were combat maps), the relevant bit it looked like this:



I think that is more accurate, and looks, indeed, more like the oldest maps I've seen. Again, it's hard to work out why a rail line wouldn't be straight, or as straight as possible. I had thought there must be a reason for the kinks, to do with the hexes. I realise it's not going to look as natural in a hex format, but still this piece of battlefield is so famous that I myself would really like to see it without the rails meandering needlessly.

If I had the map editor and I could learn to use it easily I would happily go over such prominent parts of the battlefield and suggest corrections for you to approve, time allowing.

Peter

There are two prongs of Balka that jut out into the Prokhorovka area there (in image 3), extending from the north west and the Psel towards the railway, and they are both deep enough to feature and, indeed, there is enough room on your map for them to feature, but instead there is only one large, flattish balka there. When you look at ariel images of this part of the world the balkas really stand out, cutting into the farmland with different profiles in vegetation and they feature (as you will know) many, many times in accounts of the combat here.

For example. This is how the Streletskoye area appears in game:


  32a.gif (Size: 475.5 KB / Downloads: 19)

And a roughly similar patch in google earth:


  32b.gif (Size: 244.23 KB / Downloads: 13)

They are a bit similar, but I would like to see with all these balkas the map looking more like the land looks, which would mean making two thinner pronged balkas, with differing vegetation, rather than just a large basin-like projection.

What do you think?

Peter

[phoenix]

Another thing is the use of fields - as a different vegetation type - around state farms and such like. All the accounts and photos of the area show this to be inaccurate. Basically, the entire area around Prokhorovka was either wheat or sunflower fields, principally, and the various state farms (three prominent ones in the Prokhorovka area, Komsomolets, Oktiabrski and Stalinskoe) were responsible for the farming of various parts of these areas. If there were only the field areas that there are around the farms in the present map then there would never be enough land to support all these towns and villages (in labour at least). So the maps would be more accurate without these 'fields', and if we were to regard the 'clear' terrain as basically huge wheat or sunflower fields (or genuine clear - the movement effects, at this scale would not be very different).

The balkas, on the other hand, which had softer soil running to bog as they approached streams and rivers, were clearly significant factors for cover and concealment and movement. Be better to use the field tile as mud, maybe and coat the balkas with it, with suitable penalties for movement. But the balkas would have to be drawn more carefully then. I understand now (now that you've said) why they're so haphazard - because a computer program made them. The full map is huge, of course, but the areas in the main scenarios cover a smaller area and I would have thought it would be possible to go over them with google earth as a guide (where the balkas are all very clear indeed) and make it all more accurate. It's all time, I realise, and maybe no one (none of the players, I mean) is much bothered about twisty rail lines. It doesn't affect gameplay, after all.

I was hoping that Normandy wouldn't include idiosyncrasies liked randomly kinked rail lines, but I suspect it will now that you've said the map is produced according to an automatic program. Even so, did someone program in these needless kinks? They are in the roads too, of course, except in roads you might be more inclined to ignore them and think of roads winding. But major railroads don't kink like that, so the program that generates the map should be adjusted, really. No?

[phoenix]

As far as Prokhorovka goes, is there a reason (to do with the hexes) that the rail line couldn't run as I the attached pic? I've put the more accurate rail line in black. Lamki would have to be moved. It's too close to Oktiabrski (if you measure on a map), but this could easily be done by cutting hexes from its north-western edge as it's also too large. As is Butovo. As, indeed, are many villages on the maps, if compared to older maps, I think. The contours for the higher land would have to be moved to go under the rail as it passes Oktiabrski. And the road would have to change to run alongside too. I've only put the line in roughly. The main thing I mean to show is how straight it should be. But maybe the hexes prevent this.


  33b.gif (Size: 435.95 KB / Downloads: 15)

[phoenix]

From combat accounts, all 3 of the state farms I mentioned had branch lines running into them (small point). I guess that might be why Stalinskoe Branch has that name in the accounts.

It's hard these days to determine whether a piece of line should have the steep embankment it had in places. If you use street view now no embankment is visible, yet combat accounts from Oktiabrski clearly state that the cutting under the rail embankment adjacent was used as a command post, so you've got that right, I think.

There is a famous combat account (from von Ribbentrop's son, in the LAH) which tells of his experiences on 12 July and I think you have his 7 tank unit exactly where he says it was, but he talks of a large anti-tank ditch being right in front of his tanks and Russian tanks attacking from Prokhorovka foundering in it before they got to him. But your only anti-tank ditch at Oktiabrski is behind Ribbentrop's 7 tanks.

I have noticed many small things like this. But to be honest the needless kinks in the railways and the absence of balka-looking balkas are the only things I would really bother with.

I'll stop now. It's still a great game. I'm amazed that, against the AI, it can produce combat results which really do mirror the reality very well.

[phoenix]

OK. One last pic. This attached below is the relevant part of the PC title. I see why the auto program has produced stepped kinks - because there is a bulge in the rail line towards Okriabrski, though taken as a whole the chunk between Komsomolets and Prokhorovka still looks more like a rail line. But the kink towards Oktiabrski has to be innacurate if you look at even a modern map. There is no reason why it would run off the high ground that leads straight to Prokhorovka and doing so would drop it into the tips of two balkas. It can't have been to get nearer to the farm, because, as I said, the accounts state there was a branch line from Oktiabrski up to the main line.


  34a.gif (Size: 195.28 KB / Downloads: 11)

At Getsovka, for what it's worth, the railway line should roughly be as in the pic below, which would leave the right amount of exposed open, flat, marshy land between the station and village. But as I said above, why wouldn't the railway go like this, in a straight line?



  35a.gif (Size: 179.84 KB / Downloads: 3)

[wiggum]

I would support everything phoenix said.
Great posts phoenix !

[phoenix]

But in any event, I'm sure you're busy enough getting Normandy done. If nobody else is bothered then I wouldn't worry about my little queries. I was just hoping to be able to correct them for myself. It would be nice not to have these needless kinks in the Normandy map though. Maybe you could consider that instead?

Thanks anyway.

Peter