Bulge 16.01s alt

[Plain Ian]

I really think Isolation is too harsh. 2 hours and the unit drops a Morale PLUS goes Ammo Low and drops another one....instantly? So if you are not an A morale unit then your toast? Really?

Low Ammo will only appear if the unit fires, but yes generally speaking you drop 2 morale levels and lose most of your combat effectiveness.

Most wargames have fairly harsh isolation mechanics, and I'd say it's necessary to allow units to be destroyed as destroying units through regular combat is generally difficult to impossible. Depending on how big the unit is, it might also not immediately be toast. How vulnerable your unit is depends on what the enemy brings to the fight. Isolating, say, a regiment with some armoured cars might be possible, but those recon units won't be able to kill the regiment by themselves.

If you get isolated during an enemy push, particularly a mobile one, your units are likely to be toast, but in this case you should be able to extract them unless there are a few battalions in those woods that will assault your units.

All valid points. However its Isolation which has caused Low Ammo isn't it? Technically I fired when I was not isolated? He isolated me. Test made and I failed Low Ammo....if I knew I was isolated or going to be isolated I wouldn't have fired? 

He has sent me his turn but I haven't watched the replay. His email suggests that some recon units were pounded. He did say SS artillery so thats means automatic disruption I guess....because Morale has dropped etc. 

I understand that the model has to allow units to disintegrate when cut off .....but 2 hours? Anyone want delayed isolation effects?

[Plain Ian]

Turn 57 Allied Bertogne - Sainlez



Artillery fire and some attcks made on both his Pioneer units that weer digging in. The FBB unit in the south was eliminated and the only unit available for moving was the D/735TNK. Its met another 2nd SS unit, probably a full strength Bn? I doubt he will be happy losing this hex and will kick me out. 

I used artillery against the 5th FJD unit at Sainlez. The 318th is digging in here.

I hoped to be able to start a small push from Magerotte with the 501st/327th Rgts of the 101st. Hopefully the 26th can watch the 2nd SS at Sibret.

[Plain Ian]

Turn 57 Allied - the south



His 5th FJD unit pulled back from Warnach and 2-317th was disrupted moving up after it. 

The FBB 88mm A/T unit was over run with little casualties. I debated to pull back the 1-319th and 2-319th but thought what the hell. I'm always giving him the good terrain and ending up sitting in the Clear taking the lumps so I threw both forward. It will delay his Pz Lehr a bit. I'm not sure which direction they are going yet?


Apart from that I counterbatteried his spotted unit in the Clear and killed 16 guns.

It must have shocked hism as in his email he says he has stopped firing in the south if his artillery is in Clear now! 

Cesar mentioned in his email that he was surprised to see a Bunker! He says the odds are as low as 1.5% for any chance of success? So he must have known it was possible to build them but hasn't tried to do so. He says he might do so now since I've shown they are possible.
I've asked Cesar what he wants to do about Engineers and Bunkers. I've told him my Bunker was accidental and I'm happy to agree not to attempt to build any more? He hasn't replied yet.....

[Plain Ian]

Turn 58 German

Looked at the end of the turn but not at replay.

Turn Losses


Victory Points


News from the Dialogue

I had 22 successful improved positions
I recovered 2 tanks and one artillery piece (8" howitzer)
5 units are now Isolated (one more this turn at Sainlez)
Reinforcements arrived 60th Rgt+2 x VII Corps Engineers on north edge and 6th Cav Gp on southern edge
I built one bridge!

As for the turn it looks like counterbattery was down but a few infantry units took bruising losses. I can see plenty of German armour now activ in most areas.

[Plain Ian]

German Turn 58 the north - new kids on the block



No real surprises apart from the stunning losses from Werfers.....um sorry thats old news I guess. 

He followed up with his infantry stacks and brought some new shiney German tanks to the party. 

1st Combat Engineers hardest hit. 29 losses to tank fire and the rest to werfer/artillery. Pretty moderate as Comrade P would say. The only reason they were sitting out in the Clear for Werfer target practise was because stack B contains two artillery units limbered up and trying to withdraw. Not sure if 100 men is worth 10 guns. No wait its the same! <G>

1-16th lost 24 men to fire (4 VGD combined firing one shot) and the rest to artillery. Just to rub salt in the woods the 1-16th went Ammo Low? (Edit: because of opportunity fire during the German turn the 1-16th went Low Ammo as it automatically fails the supply test as it starts its turn Isolated)

He also had plenty artillery for counterbattery fire but lucky for me two HQ's took all the hits. One HQ disrupted but recovered.

So Another turn of getting pounded in the Clear I think as not only will my artillery in stack B only get 2-3 hexes but stack A has 4 artillery units (42 tubes) and still has to limber up! 

Not a great day for forward planning by me. Idea to pull back to woods was ok but I should have cleared my artillery away first. Duh.

Classic PzC play by Cesar. Keep stacked, fire as a stack and just pick one unit at a time. The things I hate most about this game. Sucks any kind of realism there might be in the game out of it. Ah you say I'll get my chance to do the same to him later on. Lets hope there is a later...

I guess I just need to hope he spreads out but I doubt it. He wouldn't attack without ensuring he has plenty of forces. Maybe try and hit his flanks and get some easy kills back.

[Plain Ian]

Classic PzC play by Cesar. Keep stacked, fire as a stack and just pick one unit at a time. The things I hate most about this game. Sucks any kind of realism there might be in the game out of it. Ah you say I'll get my chance to do the same to him later on. Lets hope there is a later...

Jeez I sound a bit bitter and twisted there. Can I just clarify that Cesar is not doing anything wrong, just playing the game as best as possible. This is a turn based game and I guess I get my turn to do it to him.

However combining unit fire to increase losses and therefore increase chances of a hit Disrupting a unit, plus also reducing the opportunities of defense fire is part of the game.

Maybe the defensive fire should be considered simultaneous so that even if the attacker disrupts the defender, any opportunity fire by that defender is factored at the non disrupted state? And opportunity fire maybe can take into consideration the number of units firing when returning fire? And how about opportunity fie recognizing when there is no point in returning fire against hard targets because the chances of hitting are infinitesimal?

[Nitram Draw]

I thought that every unit always fired individually even if you fired a stack. That stack firing just saved some clicks. Is that right?

[ComradeP]

I'm not sure, it's one of those things that you would expect everybody to know, but in practice most people don't or have forgotten.

Initially I also thought the number of casualties was the primary modifier for how likely a unit was to disrupt, but that's not the case as far as I know either. Firing more often can result in more disruptions than firing as a stack. When firing as a stack, your main advantage is less return fire.

[Plain Ian]

I'm not sure, it's one of those things that you would expect everybody to know, but in practice most people don't or have forgotten.

Initially I also thought the number of casualties was the primary modifier for how likely a unit was to disrupt, but that's not the case as far as I know either. Firing more often can result in more disruptions than firing as a stack. When firing as a stack, your main advantage is less return fire.

For losses inflicted I think its raw attacking strength that is the factor. All the units attacking strengths are added up, then modified then this is used to generate the loss inflicted. Whether this gives the same effect of each unit indivdually firing I don't know?

I'm not the best reader of the manual and although I've played PzC on and off for quite a few years I've always thought that the Disruption test was based on casualties as some kind of % of total unit strength. So if you have 10 casualties out of 100 thats 10% and you'd roll based on that? 1 man would be 1% and you would roll on the 1% column so to speak. All modified by Morale etc. 

So I guess do you make the defender roll once on the 10% column or roll multiple times on lower columns for each individual unit? However if you chose the second option you do risk triggering opportunity fire. 

I'm sure someone will check over whats being said and make corrections. Either that or I'll read the manual......

[Plain Ian]

Turn 58 German - Spa



No change at Spa really apart from the arrival of the KG Peiper units which were in the Stoumont area (B). They appeared, fired once and disrupted D company 3-32nd taking out 4 tanks. The 105th Engineers (I think I labelled this the 305th last time and called them 305th?) have dug in to TRENCH level in this hex, but I'm not sure I want to stay here. But I don't want him gaining a Forest hex......

It looks like a small Pioneer unit and a 3rd FJD Bn have also came up from the south to protect his left wing.

His main group in Spa (A) continues to whittle down my infantry. His armour are digging in? Were they digging last turn?

His disrupted FJD units (D) remain disrupted thank god. 

The 75mm A/T group above (D) are limbered up ready to move?

He made several attacks with groups E and F. The 3-517th received most of the artillery in this area. He has hinted that he is setting up a lot more. (16 Bn's???) He could be bluffing. The 3-517th did dig in to IMPROVED.

None of my units north west of Spa dug in last turn.  

The only spotted unit this turn is that SS unit just below Group D. Its probably a small 6 gun SPG unit? 

I'll keep on digging. I wish I had done that more all game........