Desert forests and orchards

[phoenix]

I just bought Tobruk and I see that the map, like the map for Alamein, includes many hexes marked as either 'orchard' (seriously in the middle of nowhere) or, even more ludicrously, 'forest'. Has anyone else noticed this? Forests and orchards in the middle of the western desert? What's it about?


  1.png (Size: 86.48 KB / Downloads: 28)

[Aces8]

I just bought Tobruk and I see that the map, like the map for Alamein, includes many hexes marked as either 'orchard' (seriously in the middle of nowhere) or, even more ludicrously, 'forest'. Has anyone else noticed this? Forests and orchards in the middle of the western desert? What's it about?

You do know that desert have oasis's and underground sources of water.  Deserts aren't just empty sandy wastes. Plants do grow there.

[JDR Dragoon]

Might be orange trees or date palms :-)

[phoenix]

I haven't heard many mentions of oases in the western desert battles - at least, not dotted all over the place like these are - nor seen a single picture of one, and they're certainly conspicuously absent now if you look at maps, or google earth. What all accounts highlight is the unremitting blankness of the landscape - no features to orientate by. I don't understand why there are so many patches of green on these maps. As you get further towards Egypt (at least on the coast - around El Alamein itself, for example) going East, or towards Tunisia, going west, then it's more likely, but not in the Libyan western desert.

[Ricky B]

I would have to say that a forest in Libya is not the same as a forest in Brazil (if we had such a map). The northern part of the area had a relatively fair number of populated locations, where there was water and trees around the villages. Further south, and the map reflects this, there are many fewer of the "green" areas and it is easy enough to identify many of them as oases in reality. People lived here, and they weren't nomads wandering the desert with camels, although of course nomadic groups also existed.

Here is an example of one of the larger oasis to the south: http://www.avalanchepress.com/Young_Fascists.php. This discusses an oasis involved in the Alamein campaign, that had a vegetated area of 50 miles by 12 miles. So based on that, we don't have enough green.

And finally, the Sahara has been growing in size over the past few decades if not longer, and areas, maybe not in Libya, that used to have water are now dry. Just saying.

Rick

[Xaver]

If you see an orchard in the desert... a water well is the easier answer, when you say oasis is not allways the usual Hollywood oasis... many times is a simple water well in the middle of nowhere with some constructions near (defensive positions) and the presence of water on them is very random (this is why their localitations were secrets for nomads tribes) and notice that closer to the coast more orchards areas you find.

[jonnymacbrown]

And finally, the Sahara has been growing in size over the past few decades if not longer, and areas, maybe not in Libya, that used to have water are now dry. Just saying.

That is very true. In addition, even a small well, an outhouse, a stone fence around a few trees and bushes would provide enough cover in the desert to warrant a "forest" hex. jonny

[phoenix]

Interesting. Thanks all. Not convinced, myself. A small well with a few trees/bushes is too insignificant to map, in this game, where a 'forest' or 'orchard' hex affects cover etc over an entire hex of 1km. So if that's what it means I think a more realistic map would have left them out. But hey.....I'm keen to try a H2H game anyway.

[Volcano Man]

Interesting. Thanks all. Not convinced, myself. A small well with a few trees/bushes is too insignificant to map, in this game, where a 'forest' or 'orchard' hex affects cover etc over an entire hex of 1km. So if that's what it means I think a more realistic map would have left them out. But hey.....I'm keen to try a H2H game anyway.

Well, in the end it all comes down to who made the map and how they interpreted the source map. I can tell you, the guy that made the map is very good at it, and if it is an orchard or forest then it is because that terrain type appeared on the source map and this is unmistakable (these places are usually clearly marked, and are not placed on the game map unless it is substantial).  Also, you have to keep in mind that terrain in one theater is NOT the same as terrain in the other theaters. The PDT data is very different. So a "forest" in the desert is much lower protection bonus and usually allows much faster movement.

And if you don't think forests exist in the desert then you only have to look at pictures of places in Iraq. Anywhere you have the slightest amount of water you will also have trees, and those trees can be pretty thick. I guess the stereotypical "desert" is just sand though, but that is really only places like middle Sahara.

Here is a Wikipedia image of a typical oasis:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/c...oggar8.jpg

...so, yes, Oasis areas can get pretty vegetated. 

But I think that main thing to keep in mind is that the combat and movement effects are completely different in the desert and the terrain types are simply classes of terrain.