CMRT Pz.IV spotting insanity

[Volksgrenadier]

I made a few overlayed pics to get a better impression.


  CMRT blocked LOS.jpg (Size: 210.37 KB / Downloads: 10)


  CMRT blue LOS.jpg (Size: 186.48 KB / Downloads: 10)

[Das Morbo]

Let me make myself more clear -

I am not saying that I expect everyone to be happy with every event,
I am not saying that the game is perfect,
I am not saying that these close range encounters are always correct. 

What I am saying is that CMRT is *no* different from the other games, 
I am saying that BFC does not consider these to be a high priority (they know that close encounters are a problem and they have made changes and continue to consider more),
I am saying that I know of no logged defects in the queue to be fixed that would change any of this.

Okay that is an answer I can live with, thank you!


About the main issue of this thread:

What has been said is definitely true - the LOS-tool just considers ground-level to ground-level line-of-sight. *

Maybe from 1 meter (3 feet) hight of a kneeling man, not more. You can see it working in the game from time to time, when soldiers spot something they are not expected to while still moving, but loose sight of it once they go to the ground.
What is more, if you have a spotter like a tank for example, the resulting LOS is different once it is in position due to its height of 2-3 meters. Same holds true if the target is big.
I guess it would be too demanding on the processor of the Computer-System to program a routine which considers type of unit requesting LOS.

Bottom line in this case is, this is not a bug but something very hard to program.


* Have you seen all the "-" in one scentence? Wow!

[Volksgrenadier]

Das Morbo,
I am not sure, if the LOS-tool considers ground level only. Because then tanks couldn't be placed well in hulldown positions: if the LOS-tool would show hulldown, the tank would be 2 or 3 meters higher and completely exposed. I don't remember to have such extreme hulldown positioning problems in the open - my impression so far has been, what the LOS-tool promises, roughly is delivered.

I believe that you, das Morbo, made a very interesting point, why there can be such catastrophic, game deciding, problems with the LOS-tool with trees involved: if not the whole vehicle is taken into account for the LOS-tool, but only one or two spots?

Since the LOS-tool can differentiate between the blue and grey line, there must be a mechanism that uses more than one spot for the LOS check. A lower one and a higher one point of view. That the tool can differentiate between full and partial LOS seems to be an indication, why the LOS-tool is NOT only calculated from the ground level or from a single spot. Otherwise it couldn't differentiate between fully and partial LOS.

But how could the behaviour above - with trees involved - be explained, if we exclude a bug?

The Pz. IV is close to trees. For the spotter being closer to an obstacle, the obstacle blocks a wider angle of vision - just like if we place ourself behind a tree. Depending how close we are to the tree, it's entirely possible that we don't see anything in front of us. Even if climbing on a ladder at the same spot, wouldn't change LOS.
So if the LOS-tool would check one or two other hight levels above ground but from exactly the same position, then the tree would still be in front and the result would be the same: tree blocking LOS -> secure.

But a vehicle or a tank is not only a spot, but has a big size. So while the LOS-tool shows LOS blocked, it could be possible - IF the LOS-tool would work that faulty way - that the tank could almost be fully exposed, while the LOS-tool suggests the user that LOS to the vehicle will be blocked...

[A Canadian Cat]

Okay that is an answer I can live with, thank you!

Glad to hear it. We can agree to disagree about the details / validity I just don't want people reading this to think there is some major changes coming in a patch. Thanks.

About the main issue of this thread:

What has been said is definitely true - the LOS-tool just considers ground-level to ground-level line-of-sight. *

I am certain that this not the case. The LOS at a way point is taken at the current height of the unit being tested. In the case of tanks this is to allow finding hull down positions. More in response to @Volksgrenadier's pictures.

[A Canadian Cat]

I made a few overlayed pics to get a better impression.

Cool.  Now since I cannot read German, so, I do not know what all the information is that you are seeing.  Here is what you can see (in English) when you use the LOS tool (forgive me up front if you already know this / what I think could be happening is not - like I said I cannot understand the qualifier words you have in the German game and I am going to be more thorough than I need just to make sure - no offense intended in any way):

Line colour:

Light blue - clear LOS to the ground (qualifiers add information)
Dark blue and Pink - blocked LOS to the ground (point of transition from blue to pink is the place LOS is blocked) (qualifies matter a huge amount)
Grey - partially obstructed LOS (some members of the unit can see but others cannot, in the case of a tank this can mean the hull MG cannot target the ground but the main gun cannot)

Qualifiers:
Hull down
Partial hull down - these are just informing you what kind of position your tank is in relative to the target area.  Hull down means only the turret of the selected tank is visible from the target area, Partial means some small portion of the hull is also visible.
Reverse slope no aim point - this one is critical! What this is trying to say is your selected unit cannot target the ground here but it is just out of visibility and if an enemy unit happens to enter this location there is a very good chance that they will be visible.

That last qualifier is the most important.  If you are using the LOS tool and see the Dark blue and Pink line indicating blocked LOS but the qualifier says "Reverse slope no aim point" this is telling you that if an enemy unit is in that location your unit will have LOS to that enemy unit (and probably visa versa) or that your FO can call artillery at this location.  In the case of a tank looking out over rolling hills, this is to help you determine how far down the reverse slope side the enemy can be spotted by your tank.

So, do you see that "Reverse slope no aim point" qualifier when you use the LOS tool for your tank and check that area where the enemy tanks are?

[Volksgrenadier]

LOS-tool says partially hulldown for all grey and blue colors.

Which could be worth a debate on it's own:


  CMRT partially hulldown.jpg (Size: 127.32 KB / Downloads: 7)

[A Canadian Cat]

Yeah in deed. That looks pretty much wheels up there :)

So the view is pretty good from the T34's location it sounds like the issue is the LOS tool was way off in the feed back.

Do you have game saves for this? For example a save before the PzIV moved forward so the tool can be tested with the way point and then the game moved forward to show that the tool was wildly off.

I have the ability to log defects with BFC.

[Volksgrenadier]

Ye... Damn!
Your WTII is working great, but what has it done to my email-files?  
Gladly I have savefiles, too:

Move planned - no LOS

Move executed - in LOS

PW: see PM.

[A Canadian Cat]

Got them thanks.

WTII? automatically deletes files after the turn has been played. You can set a directory to archive all turns to if you like - In the preferences set a directory for the "Turn archive root directory" on the File management tab. Then all email files will be archived in a sub folder of that directory. At the end of the game you can right click and archive the game and that will .zip up all the email turns and clean everything up.

[Volksgrenadier]

Can't WTII be setup that it doesn't delete files?