#0202_08s_Kharkov '43 Grand Campaign_Variant_1 CLOSED

[fabiominatti]

Hello everyone!
I am seeking a Soviet player for the huge but fascinating scenario #0202_08s_Kharkov '43 Grand Campaign_Variant_1,  https://www.theblitz.club/scenarios/pzc-...io&id=7268
I've played 50 rounds with a guy of forum, but finding himself in a desperate situation he preferred to abandon...
This scenario is extremely challenging, but personally I consider it the best in the series and I am determined to try to conclude it
As I have many commitments, the frequency 1 o 2 turns at week
I hope that many are interested in this challenge: if no one wants to be German, I am possibly willing to play  on the German side...
Regards

[Fortynslow]

I PM'd you concerning this post.

[Kool Kat]

Gents:

I think it is commendable and admirable that both of you would even consider tackling a 449 turn "monster" scenario!

My experience with playing "mega-large" scenarios is limited to the following one:

0718_01 Sicily Dry Feet Campaign (Sicily 43) - 172 turns


Even with this campaign scenario, my opponent and I decided to call it a "Draw" after approximately 132 turns since neither one of our forces were able to make much head way battling each other and the difficult terrain on the island of Sicily.

Given a turn exchange rate of 1-2 per week... you gents are looking at a 4 year time period to play out ALL 449 turns! 

I have also found that when you commit to playing one of these "monster" scenarios, you inversely need to focus all your gaming time to completing a turn in the mega-scenario. All other gaming usually must come to an end. 

I replied to your thread because while I do admire your "gumption" to tackle a 449 turn scenario... you may want to consider opening this up to more players and making it a Team Game - maybe 2x2?  

You may also wish to set "certain conditions" that if met on the battlefield would grant one side some level of victory? Players could then mutually agree to either end or continue the game?  


In any case, I wish both of you guys all the best in taking on the Kharkov 43 Grand Campaign! Please post periodic updates on how your scenario is progressing. I, for one, am fascinated with better understanding how a 449 turn scenario would play out!

Hopefully, your scenario will be decided well under the 449 turn limit! 

[Fortynslow]

I told my wife last night I had just made a four-year wargaming commitment. This merely reinforced her opinion that I was crazy, to which I responded, "Who is crazier, the crazy person, or the person who marries the crazy person?"

Anyway, I tend to overanalyze/agonzize over play a little bit, so my goal here is to force myself to go straight down the line and make the first, quick, gut based decision and then move on. I think my play is better when I do that, and I should be able to knock out one turn a week that way.

Coincidentally, I don't have any other games going on at present, so it sort of made sense.

Time will tell.

[Strela]

Gents:

I think it is commendable and admirable that both of you would even consider tackling a 449 turn "monster" scenario!

Kool Kat,

As the designer for Kharkov '43 I wanted to throw my thoughts in here.

This particular scenario is probably the most innovative one I have done. Though it is 449 turns long there are actually three times that victory is determined.

The dates are February 19th, March 5th and March 18th. The reason for this is that without each phase being represented and scored (the initial Soviet advance, the German counterattack and the capture of Kharkov) it is too easy for both players to do ahistorical tactics.

Victory points work completely differently to other games (see attachment in this post for details) and are based on the number of locations held on the aforementioned dates. Points for kills and losses don't figure in the mix other than to represent the balance of losses overall. They don't count for victory determination.

I'll be interested to hear how this plays out, but the way the points work the Soviets have to push hard to take as much of the map as possible by February 19th and then weather the inevitable 'backhand blow'.

It's a great gaming situation and one of my (many) favourite titles!

David

[Fhil]

Well, I would also like to see how this game develops.
I like big campaigns myself, we´re playing a team game (initially 8 players, now down to 6) of Minsk ´44, by this time it´s 90 turns from 160 I think and we´re playing it for three years or something more. After such time, you have a respect for all the effort from everybody. So good luck gentlemen!

David,

As I do not own Kharkov ´43 I was not aware of that interesting solution with the victory points. It simply looks great and I think that some other games lack this type of solution as well in order to prevent gamey tactic which then usually tends to completely destroy the point of the scenario! Was it hard to implement it into the engine?
But the losses are not accounted for at all? Doesn´t that give space for a gamey tactic regarding the use of the units (not taking care about the losses)?

[Strela]

David,

As I do not own Kharkov ´43 I was not aware of that interesting solution with the victory points. It simply looks great and I think that some other games lack this type of solution as well in order to prevent gamey tactic which then usually tends to completely destroy the point of the scenario! Was it hard to implement it into the engine?
But the losses are not accounted for at all? Doesn´t that give space for a gamey tactic regarding the use of the units (not taking care about the losses)?

Hi Fhil,

This solution was devised because when we first released Kharkov '43 there was not a Grand Campaign. Originally there was a scenario for each of the above phases. A number of players complained that there had to be a way to combine the scenarios (which was easy enough) but I had to find a way to incent the players to consider and execute historical actions.

For example the Soviets have to go a long way to capture enough locations to get a decent level of victory by February 19.

As far as implementing it into the engine, it is sort of forced. The game will alert you to check the score on the right date/turn, but players then have to manually record the values at that time.

As far as losses - no to gamely tactics. This is a long scenario. If you burn up all your defenders early on you will struggle to hold anything, let alone counterattack. Players will naturally have to shepherd their forces to take or defend locations, all of which are valued at exactly 1 VP. No need to include losses in the calculation of victory for that reason.

David

[Fhil]

Hi David,

I´ve just checked the file you attached, it´s very well writen and explained, like usually with your documention to the games . I think it shouldn´t be a problem to keep the track of values through the game using it.

As I´ve said, this could be implemented into other campaigns as well, to simulate those orders from higher ranks.

Sir, I do have another question for your regarding the OOB solution I´ve found out about this week and wanted to ask you about it, but I don´t want to fill this thread with it   

Can I pass you an email?

[Strela]

Hi David,

I´ve just checked the file you attached, it´s very well writen and explained, like usually with your documention to the games . I think it shouldn´t be a problem to keep the track of values through the game using it.

As I´ve said, this could be implemented into other campaigns as well, to simulate those orders from higher ranks.

Sir, I do have another question for your regarding the OOB solution I´ve found out about this week and wanted to ask you about it, but I don´t want to fill this thread with it   

Can I pass you an email?

Fhil,

No problem at all with email. It should be in my profile.

David

[Kool Kat]

Gents:

I think it is commendable and admirable that both of you would even consider tackling a 449 turn "monster" scenario!

Kool Kat,

As the designer for Kharkov '43 I wanted to throw my thoughts in here.

This particular scenario is probably the most innovative one I have done. Though it is 449 turns long there are actually three times that victory is determined.

The dates are February 19th, March 5th and March 18th. The reason for this is that without each phase being represented and scored (the initial Soviet advance, the German counterattack and the capture of Kharkov) it is too easy for both players to do ahistorical tactics.

Victory points work completely differently to other games (see attachment in this post for details) and are based on the number of locations held on the aforementioned dates. Points for kills and losses don't figure in the mix other than to represent the balance of losses overall. They don't count for victory determination.

I'll be interested to hear how this plays out, but the way the points work the Soviets have to push hard to take as much of the map as possible by February 19th and then weather the inevitable 'backhand blow'.

It's a great gaming situation and one of my (many) favourite titles!

David

Hi David:  

Many thanks for your reply and explanation of this scenario!  

Again, I am very interested to learn how it "plays out" over the next year or so.