Question on combat values and fire values

[melm]

Hi all,

In the manual, I've read

For fire combat, the combat value is the adjusted fire value of the firing units. For assault combat, the combat value is the adjusted strength of the opposing side.

However, I have no idea how combat value is adjusted according to fire value(fire value I think I can get the value from L*S*E, and then adjusted by several effects). In manual, it gives an example using combat value = 400. How to get this 400? Can someone possibly tell me how to do the math? 

Thanks.

[Rabbit]

I think the manual just used the number "400" purely as an example. I believe the basic fire value (without taking into account penetration, range or other factors) is calculated roughly as Lethality x Strength x Effectiveness, such that if you have a squad carrying a combined total of 10 AK-47's (lethality 19) and are at 80% effectiveness, the math would be 10 (strength) x 19 (lethality) x .80 (effectiveness) = 152.

JZ has some fantastic write-ups about the calculations, and specifically as it pertains to assaulting:
https://sites.google.com/site/jzs-place/...and-others

Understanding the Combat Results Calculations:
https://sites.google.com/site/jzs-place/...lculations

And JZ has some other great articles you might want to peruse as well:
https://sites.google.com/site/jzs-place/...-home-page

My advice is to not get too heavily bogged down in the math of it. It helps to understand it from a very high level perspective, such as knowing that your fire value is halved if the squad firing is Disrupted or Pinned and quartered if they are Demoralized. Likewise firing from further than half your weapon's maximum range also halves your fire value (or conversely it is doubled if you are only one hex away). From that perspective it makes sense to try and hold your fire when it is getting heavily penalized like that. Otherwise I usually don't worry too much if I am firing a weapon with a 5 lethality or a 20 lethality ... I am going to fire whatever I've got! (Although the big caveat to that is penetration factors, which play a huge role in the game. That's an area for which it definitely is worth understanding the math.)

[melm]

In my understanding, 152 is fire value not combat value. Combat value comes from fire value (in manual it uses the word 'adjusted') while I don't know the formula and this is the key problem I have. Correct me if I am wrong. However, casualty is based on calculation of combat value not fire value from the example manual gives. That's why I am eager to know how to get the number for the combat value.

[Rabbit]

As per the User Manual: "For fire combat, the combat value is the adjusted fire value of the firing units." So it is essentially the fire value, but with some adjustments such as Range Effect, Firing Unit Effect, Target Effects, etc. (see the "Firing" section of your User Manual for more details).

So the 152 Fire Value number I gave you would also be affected by those adjustments in order to get your Combat Value. For instance, the Fire Value would be halved if I was firing at long distance (i.e., greater than half my range), halved again if my firing squad was Disrupted, but it would be doubled if my target wasn't in Ground Mode. In that scenario (and ignoring some of the other possible adjustments), my Combat Value would be 76 (76 = 152 divided by 2 divided by 2 times 2).

[melm]

As per the User Manual: "For fire combat, the combat value is the adjusted fire value of the firing units."  So it is essentially the fire value, but with some adjustments such as Range Effect, Firing Unit Effect, Target Effects, etc. (see the "Firing" section of your User Manual for more details).

So the 152 Fire Value number I gave you would also be affected by those adjustments in order to get your Combat Value.  For instance, the Fire Value would be halved if I was firing at long distance (i.e., greater than half my range), halved again if my firing squad was Disrupted, but it would be doubled if my target wasn't in Ground Mode.  In that scenario (and ignoring some of the other possible adjustments), my Combat Value would be 76 (76 = 152 divided by 2 divided by 2 times 2).

Thank you very much for solving my uncertainty!

[Rabbit]

No problem. It is a great question because it highlights just how important those adjustments can be. Because weapons lose their effectiveness every time you use them, you can quickly understand why it is often better to hold fire when your firepower is halved or quartered due to adjustments.

For instance, it rarely makes sense to have demoralized units fire their weapons because their Fire Value is automatically quartered. Rookie players often just keep firing away with Disrupted/Pinned/Demoralized units, whereas veterans understand the value of often retreating those units to regain their morale. Likewise you need to be mindful of when you leave Ground Mode on offense because you are doubling the Fire Value of any enemy units firing against you.

You can easily get mired in the math (for instance, trying to determine exactly how many casualties are expected to occur in a particular combat scenario), but it greatly helps to know from a high level what causes your firepower to get halved or multiplied.

[Jeff Conner]

Another thing to take into consideration is the ratio between the firing weapon's penetration and the defending hex's protection.  If you have a squad of men armed with rifles with a penetration of six and they are trying to attack a machine gun in a bunker (protection value of twenty-four), then your combat value is going to be reduced to 25% before any other modification.  So it might be a good idea to move the squad adjacent to the bunker for an assault behind a smoke screen and with a weapon with a higher penetration value, such as a bazooka, providing covering fire.

Completely understanding the math is not necessary to become a good player, but understanding the different factors that determine the combat values helps considerably.  That and experience will let you know what will work and what won't.

[Opti]

Hi guys, I'm completely new to Squad Battles series, and to more complex wargames in general (I've only played Panzer Corps/Battle Academy/Unity of Command. I just recently learned about John Tiller games and I'm loving them. I have trouble with the manual though, some stuff I just cannot find in it, like opportunity fire rules and such. Also in the firing formula it mentions unit Strength but nowhere in the manual is defined what unit Strength actually is?

Reading this thread I understood that it's the actual number of firing units ? Is that mentioned anywhere in the documentation?

Also what is Strength of the weapon ? Is it its base fire value, like fire:3 ?

How are combat loses distributed?

One more question while I'm at it, how do undermanned (for example) machine guns work? Is it possible to make them manned again. Also can I and how pickup dropped enemy weapons? Sorry for tons of question, thanks :)

[Jeff Conner]

Hi guys, I'm completely new to Squad Battles series, and to more complex wargames in general (I've only played Panzer Corps/Battle Academy/Unity of Command. I just recently  learned about John Tiller games and I'm loving them. I have trouble with the manual though, some stuff I just cannot find in it, like opportunity fire rules and such. Also in the firing formula it mentions unit Strength but nowhere in the manual is defined what unit Strength actually is?

The opportunity rules are not really discussed.  From experience, I believe that the chance of a unit firing during the opponent's turn is based on the range and the unit's morale.  The closer the triggering unit is, the more likely it is to draw opportunity fire.  Likewise, I believe that the higher the morale of a unit, the more likely it is use opportunity fire.

The strength is the number of weapons of a single type that a unit is carrying.  An infantry squad usually has several rifles, a light machine gun or two and perhaps a submachinegun or two.  The strength can be found in the unit tray at the bottom of the weapon icon.  For example if there is 8X there, it means that the strength of that weapon is 8.

Reading this thread I understood that it's the actual number of firing units ? Is that mentioned anywhere in the documentation?

Also what is Strength of the weapon ? Is it its base fire value, like fire:3 ?

As mentioned in this thread previously, the fire value is found by multiplying the strength (number of weapons) times the lethality (how well does this weapon affect the enemy) times the effectiveness.  The effectiveness declines by a random amount each time the weapons fires (including opportunity fire).  So if you have a squad of infantry with 8 M1 Garrand rifles with 90% effectiveness, then the fire value would 8*14*.90 or 100.8.

How are combat loses distributed?

To the best of my knowledge, this is completely random.  If there is a total of 20 men in a hex (not a good idea in most cases), than there is a 5% chance of any single man being a casualty.  If a unit has multiple weapons, than the weapon carried by the casualty is also randomly chosen. 

One more question while I'm at it, how do undermanned (for example) machine guns work? Is it possible to make them manned again. Also can I and how pickup dropped enemy weapons?  Sorry for tons of question, thanks :)

Heavy weapons have a crew size.  If the number of men in a unit decrease below the crew size, than the lethality and the movement of the unit is modified by the ration of number of men divided by the crew size.  For example, if you have a machinegun with a crew size of three and only two men in the unit, then the movement and lethality values would be multiplied by 2/3.  By adroit use of the Pickup and Drop commands in the Command menu you can transfer the crewed weapon to a unit that has more men.  You can also use these commands to pickup dropped weapons on the battlefield.

The best way to learn how to play the game is play an experienced player and have them explain and critique your play.  I'd be happy to do this for you if you are interested.  My email address is jefferyconner at suddenlink dot net  Send me an email and I'll walk you through how to set up a PBEM game if you are not sure.

Jeff

[Opti]

Thanks Jeff, I think I'll first play the game solo a bit, it's more enjoyable for me to learn it the hard way, at least for now :)

One quick question about firing, this is the default formula in the manual:

Each Weapon unit has Lethality, Penetration, and Range values
that can be seen by right-clicking on the unit picture. When the
weapon fires, these values are used to determine a fire value using
the following calculations. The nominal fire value of a weapon is:
L * S * E
Where L is the Lethality of the weapon, S is the Strength of the
weapon, and E is the Effectiveness of the weapon




On the same page there is this:

Firing Unit Effect
The fire value of the weapon is affected by the condition of the unit doing the
firing in the following ways:
• The fire value of the weapon is multiplied by the Effectiveness of the
firing unit. For weapons on Vehicles, the Effectiveness of the Vehicle is
used in this calculation.
• If the firing unit is Disrupted or Pinned, the fire value is halved.
• If the firing unit is Demoralized, the fire value is quartered (divided by 4).
• If the Weapon unit requires a crew of strength S and the firing unit only
has a strength of C, then the fire value is multiplied by C / S.




Does that mean that Firing value is Lethality * Strength * Effectiveness of the weapon * Effectiveness of the unit? (not counting any other modifiers like range etc.)

Basically my question is do both effectiveness of the weapons and of the unit affect the firing value, if I'm understanding this correctly? Also if the unit is Disrupted/Pinned, is the whole Fire value halved or just Unit Effectiveness multiplier ? I'm assuming it's the former.