Fall Kreml

typhoon · 05-08-2017, 11:21 PM,

Anyone want to give one of the Fall Kreml variants a try. I have seen no games reported so it seems it's something that should be done. Willing to play any of the four options any side not worried about speed of play lets just try and see how far we can get.

ComradeP · 05-09-2017, 06:32 PM,

A few years ago, there was concern that the Fall Kreml scenarios were not well balanced in terms of victory points and Soviet unit releases.

The design idea was that capturing Moscow would be required for an Axis major victory, whilst in practice it was not.

Particularly in the "main effort" scenarios, the Soviets don't have a lot of reserves and all of them are Fixed. This makes defending as the Soviets quite frustrating. I tried a main effort scenario a while ago and I conceded defeat after the first in-game day as I didn't see how I would be able to form a solid Soviet defensive line as the forces on the initial frontline were likely to die or take days to reach secondary positions, whilst the secondary prepared positions way to the rear did not support the frontline positions.

A full campaign game with the house rule that the Axis player has to capture Moscow, or at the least most objectives and inflict very serious losses on the Soviets in order to win (ignoring in-game victory points), could still be entertaining for the Soviet player.

Are you looking for a full campaign game or a main effort short campaign?

typhoon · 05-09-2017, 08:16 PM,

I was looking at the four 250 turn campaigns and would be interested in playing any. As for house rules I play to enjoy though a win is nice so any house rules that make for an entertaining and fairer game would be fine by me. It's no fun at all when the dice is loaded against you from the start. Could the editor perhaps be used to unfix some of the Soviet second line units you mentioned I will try anything to have some fun exploring this title it's been gathering dust for far too long.

ComradeP · (This post was last modified: 05-10-2017, 03:55 AM by ComradeP.)

Fall Kreml North is the easiest for the Germans I think, for the simple reason that they start fairly close to Moscow. Someone got close to Moscow in a Main Effort North game, which has less than half the turns of a full campaign.

The Center and South variants should allow the Soviets to redeploy.

The secondary river line is a bunker line, so the units holding that position are well-protected, but unable to intervene due to being Fixed. They do have T releases per army, which helps.

The local reserves behind the initial frontline being Fixed is more of a problem initially, as that means they'll only activate when the Germans run into them. As Soviets unit dispositions and arrival schedules are the same for all variants as far as I know, units might even be facing the wrong way.

With the houserule that Moscow needs to be captured, the dice are not necessarily loaded against you right from the start, but with regular victory conditions the Soviets are just blown to bits before they can do much.

Unfixing at least the local reserves would improve balance, I'd say.

typhoon · 05-10-2017, 05:33 AM,

Well we could unfix the Soviet forces you deem necessary for a balanced game and also say it's Moscow or bust for the Germans. Having not played these your knowledge of them is far greater than mine but do hope to get a game.

Strela · 05-10-2017, 05:52 AM,

Tell me what you would like adjusted re local reserves and I'll make it an official 'alternative' scenario.

That said. I have played a full Kreml North for at least 100 turns and the Germans don't have it all their own way. Supply is deliberately constrained the further.you get away from the west map edge.

Happy though to mod this for you.

David

ComradeP · (This post was last modified: 05-11-2017, 04:03 AM by ComradeP.)

What makes Fall Kreml North easier than other variants, is that the bulk of the Soviet mobile formations start in the southern/eastern part of the map. It's easier to screen the flank. And, as noted, Moscow is closer.

typhoon: would you be OK with me making some changes with unfixing units and then sending that file to you in the weekend? We could then run a test game and report back to Strela to see if the variant is viable.

I'll also move Katyusha units back a hex or two, as in most if not all Moscow '42 scenarios they are placed as if they had pre-update values (instead of the current longer range, but with a minimum range as well).

As was mentioned in the thread about the January 2013 Moscow '42 update introducing the new Katyusha values, they're sited appropriately in most cases in terms of being able to fire, but the minimum range (and counterbattery spotting chance) means they'll have to relocate fairly soon to avoid being spotted or unable to fire.