1201_01a Close Call at Kubinka HTH

[Plain Ian]

German Turn 3



A few strange things I noted. He used artillery against my entrenched Guards at Naro-Fominsk which was a bit of a waste? Surely 3rd Motorised artillery would have been better against other targets. He also used artillery against disrupted units which he was going to assault? I find its better to assault without artillery and if they are pushed back into clear terrain or you see a better target after the assault then use artillery.

The German unit of 292nd Div I've marked up with a Blue A I think fired? If it hadn’t fired it could have reached Sememychi?

Anyway I’m turning into a nit picker, here’s what happened.

3rd Motorised moved up a bit more. It looks like part of it will support 258th?

1.      The 1/774th was hit by artillery then assaulted by 2 Bn’s losing heavily and was pushed back on the 3/744th. (-11/-66 assault) It lost further men to fire. All in all it lost -85 men.

2.      The 2/774th was then assaulted and was forced to retreat. Despite using two Bn’s the result did cost the attacker. (-27/-47 asault)

3.      At Myakshovo an Infantry Bn and the Recon Bn assaulted the 3/757th. I was hoping it would retreat NE but it went SE. Despite the 3/757th being badly fatigude the assault losses were -18/-10. The 3/757th is Fat 269 No Morale.

4.      The 292nd assaulted the 1/322nd and pushed it back. Quite a few fire fights broke out in this area. The 1/322nd took heavy  casualties and is Fat 286 No Morale. 2/113th and 1/322nd also took casualties as did the Germans.

7th Division might be moving over? 
 
Russian losses have overtaken German again. No units lost but if I do not fall back this will happen. 

VP figures below

[Plain Ian]

Russian Turn 3



Not much to see. Russian artillery selected targets in clear terrain where possible. The mighty 138th sHeavy Howitzers of RVGK were not available but the 1st Guards Howitzers pounded the unforunate 3rd Motorised Pioneers at Naro.

I pulled back the 2/774th and 3/787th. They would have been assaulted and surrounded.
The 1/774th was pulled back and I left the 3/774th behind. I decided to fire and was disrupted. Hey ho. 
The 2/757th replaced the battered 3/757th in an atttempt to slow down his advance on Sememychi. No fire was triggered.
The fresh 1/113th swopped places with the battered 3/322nd and lost 3 men to fire. It di not disrupt so this should prevent him assaulting next turn?

I moved the 133rd Lt Artillery north and elocated the 32nd HQ....except its marked up on the map as 222nd! Ooops.

Losses and VP's

[ComradeP]

Though Soviet units Disrupt quickly, they can still cause considerable losses when assaulted. In many cases they're at 580-590 men or so if they Disrupt in the turn they're first engaged in. Using artillery to reduce their morale, and thus lower friendly losses when assaulting, isn't necessarily a waste.

As Disruptions after limited contact are not difficult to recover from, it helps to keep the pressure on Disrupted units (in the breakthrough area) to slow their recovery through worsening their morale state, or through inflicting fatigue so it becomes less reliable over time.

With the Frozen penalties in place, German movement, assault and fire values are not so great in this scenario compared to the normal situation.

Edit: these earlier PzC titles might not all have standardized McNamara offensive/defensive values. The HA and SA values in the Moscow '42 Naro Fominsk scenario, which is centered roughly on the area covered by the battle you're playing now, are very different.

[Plain Ian]

Though Soviet units Disrupt quickly, they can still cause considerable losses when assaulted. In many cases they're at 580-590 men or so if they Disrupt in the turn they're first engaged in. Using artillery to reduce their morale, and thus lower friendly losses when assaulting, isn't necessarily a waste.

As Disruptions after limited contact are not difficult to recover from, it helps to keep the pressure on Disrupted units (in the breakthrough area) to slow their recovery through worsening their morale state, or through inflicting fatigue so it becomes less reliable over time.

With the Frozen penalties in place, German movement, assault and fire values are not so great in this scenario compared to the normal situation.

Edit: these earlier PzC titles might not all have standardized McNamara offensive/defensive values. The HA and SA values in the Moscow '42 Naro Fominsk scenario, which is centered roughly on the area covered by the battle you're playing now, are very different.

I haven't really looked at Infantry units so far. Russian units are at 480 men (100%) and the German Infantry Divisions start at 400 men which is 80% Therefore after a few losses they drop below the magic 70% figure. Russian Guards and german Panzer/Motorised infantry are a lot higher.

Assaults have been pretty bloody for the German in the game so far. I will have to read up Morale effects in assault again. 

Looking at Eldars play maybe he is following your strategy? He is not just trying to punch a hole and run through he is trying to weaken the whole Russian from line strength?

However for bang for the buck its better to target units in Clear. Against a Dirupted unit I know I will win and if there is a chance of pushing him back on Clear terrain or my advance might reveal these type of targets then I think its best to hold fire.

[Plain Ian]

German Turn 4



The crews of the guns of the 138th Heavy Howitzer Rgt tumble into their slit trenches as German counter battery falls down on them. When they firing stops one of their guns lies wrecked.  The Germans must be using new technology, the guns did not fire last turn due to Ammo Low????

Elsewhere German artillery hammers the front line. Losses are low apart from the 3/787th. This unit is still well manned with 437 men and Fatigue only 48.  The 1/1st Gds Rifle again receive attention.

Action begins in the  west with the 292nd launching a 2 Bn attack which throws the 3/774th back. The 3/774th disrupts but recovers. Losses in the assault are even (-20/-20) with the Germans losing a few more during the approach.

The 1/757th loses out in fire fight and Disrupts.
 
At Myakshovo the 258th do not appear to be in a hurry? The 2/757th which was rushed in last turn resist well supported by Russian artillery fire.

The German 7th Division finally make an appearance. It looks like they will be tasked with supporting the 258th and clearing the woods. They probably have left a small covering force by Yastrebovo. The Recon unit is caught by the 2/17th and loses 15 men. The rest of the Division is heavily engaged with elements of the 32nd Rifle Division.

The 258th launch two assaults both 2 Bn sized I think? Well the first was but I’m not sure about the second?  
The first succeeds and throws back the 1/113th and 2/113th NW onto the 1/322nd. The 2/113th was disrupted from the previous turn and the 1/113th was disrupted by fire prior to the assault. The assault was not overwhelming (-18/-28) but overall losses were high for the Russians. The 2/113th recovered  from Disruption.
The second assault fails. Despite plenty German support fire before the assault the 3/322nd held on and was not Disrupted. The Germans lost heavily. (-38/-16) A final shot from the Germans after the assault did however Disrupt the 3/322nd. The unit has No Morale and a fatigue of 178.

And that was that. German losses were high again. They have risen from 547 to 717. Russian losses went from 633 to 835 and of course 1 203mm heavy howitzer. I’m not sure I'm recording 100% of the losses on my maps so it may not tally with the VP dialogue box. Its pretty difficult recording losses when watching a replay so bear with me.

The big surprise is that he made no attempt to advance on Sememychi ? He might just have been able to move adjacent last turn and it looked definitely looked possible this turn? Its Turn 4 of 19 which means 15 to go? I’ve never played the scenario before but when I looked at the situation I thought the German plan was to race to Kubinka using the obvious gap which meant capturing Sememychi as quickly as possible? Maybe Eldar is pacing himself trying to conserve men and fatigue?

I’ve put Russian and German artillery units on the map for comparison and to fill up the empty spaces. The Russian 203mm is an awesome weapon but the results from the 35th Gds 122mm-155mm Howitzer unit have also been impressive. Not surprising when you they have 36 guns in the unit though.....

Losses and VP’s


It won't take me long to do my turn. Hopefully I'll post in a few hours.

[ComradeP]

Generally speaking, the Soviets cause more losses when assaulted than when they fire. When they're assaulted, there's a chance of defensive artillery fire and opportunity fire. B morale units can most certainly Disrupt, though it's not very common. Disrupted Soviet stacks can be difficult to remove with single units.

I'm not entirely sure if morale loss through fatigue gain is applied immediately during an assault. As in: if you assault a unit, and suffer casualties that cause morale to drop due to fatigue gain, if you roll for the new morale level or for the standard one.

As the Germans, you need to rotate the infantry as C morale infantry (through fatigue) is not going to have a lasting effect on a strong defensive position.

As the Soviets, you face the usual issues of inflicting relatively few losses through direct fire and always being outgunned. That's why scenarios with open terrain are a problem for them as they can be "herded" towards a certain location and their release schedules are usually not very flexible. A quality German units with the current McNamara values cause very serious losses to Soviet units using direct fire. I'm surprised losses are still fairly similar, though the different HA and SA values in this version might explain that.

Considering that the game doesn't use the current McNamara values, I wonder if the Frozen penalty is active or if it was not added in an update. Is it in the parameter data dialog?

In this scenario, he can keep closing in on your retreating units, but it's unlikely he'll actually destroy them as ZOC locking units in forests with 1 hex movement (also due to the Frozen penalty on movement) is only possible if you let him.

[Plain Ian]

Generally speaking, the Soviets cause more losses when assaulted than when they fire. When they're assaulted, there's a chance of defensive artillery fire and opportunity fire. B morale units can most certainly Disrupt, though it's not very common. Disrupted Soviet stacks can be difficult to remove with single units.

I'm not entirely sure if morale loss through fatigue gain is applied immediately during an assault. As in: if you assault a unit, and suffer casualties that cause morale to drop due to fatigue gain, if you roll for the new morale level or for the standard one.

As the Germans, you need to rotate the infantry as C morale infantry (through fatigue) is not going to have a lasting effect on a strong defensive position.

As the Soviets, you face the usual issues of inflicting relatively few losses through direct fire and always being outgunned. That's why scenarios with open terrain are a problem for them as they can be "herded" towards a certain location and their release schedules are usually not very flexible. A quality German units with the current McNamara values cause very serious losses to Soviet units using direct fire. I'm surprised losses are still fairly similar, though the different HA and SA values in this version might explain that.

Considering that the game doesn't use the current McNamara values, I wonder if the Frozen penalty is active or if it was not added in an update. Is it in the parameter data dialog?

In this scenario, he can keep closing in on your retreating units, but it's unlikely he'll actually destroy them as ZOC locking units in forests with 1 hex movement (also due to the Frozen penalty on movement) is only possible if you let him.

I've just checked and the Frozen Penalty is active and is 20% for Axis. Its 0% for the Russians but possibly a 5% would be fairer? I don't think anyone likes fighting in these conditions!

ZOC locking. Yes the penny has just dropped for me on this one. I don't think I've ever played a game with this option and I didn't fully understand the implications. Now that I do, then falling back is really obligatory not gamey some times. But the woods do make a difference as you say so its only the clear terrain i have to watch. However there is still a danger of my 32nd Division being herded in the woods.

[Plain Ian]

Russian Turn 4



Pretty simple turn. Steady as it goes. I pulled back a few units and the big risk was bringing forward the 4th Sapper and triggering defensive fire. No fire was triggered. I did not fire with any infantry apart from the 2/17th which I moved up to plug the gap. 
Artillery fire. Well I forego my usual mantra about looking for targets in Clear and picked some different ones this turn. The mighty 138th did hit a Bn of the 258th NE of Myakshovo though. One target I picked was the ruins of Navaya. I didn't look at this properly as I now see that before he assaulted he Rubbled the town and that one of his BN's in the assault was Disrupted???? I targeted the other Bn in the off chance I might Disrupt this as well? Unlikely.

VP's and losses.

[Plain Ian]

German and Russian Infantry units - comparison


I've listed the main units for both sides. You can see why German losses have been high. The Russian units are not really push overs in this scenario. Russian units have 80 more men and their defense factors are excellent whilst their Soft attack factors are quite good. Russian morale is fairly decent as well. The Russian 32nd Rifle Division has two Rgts of C Morale troops and one of D/E. The 222nd has one Rgt of C Morale and two Rgts of D.
 
The German Infantry Bn's from the Infantry Divisions have to do most of the early fighting. They start off at 80% so will drop to 70% after some further casualties. (which makes them 90% effective) they suffer from the 20% Frozen penalty. They usually have to make their attacks from Clear terrain against entrenched Russians in wooded terrain. 
 
However German unit quality is good. The German 7th Division has B quality units whilst the 258th and 292nd are all A rated similar to the motorised infantry in the Panzer and Motorised Divisions. The motorised infantry units are larger units in terms of men. The 3rd Motorised is probably their best units. same soft attack factor but 150 more men. The motorised infantry from the 19th Panzers are also large but have lower soft attack factors? (there are only two of them)

[Plain Ian]

German Turn 5




A bad turn for the Russians in the 222nd Division. 2 units are cut off and will be destroyed next turn.
 
1.      The 2/757th is hit by artillery and disrupts. It is then assaulted (-12/-29) and falls back SE onto the 1/757th instead of NE onto the 3/757th as I hoped. This seals the fate of both units.
2.      A further assaults scores -26/-240 against the group.
3.      Next assault -15/-216.
4.      Last assault against the cut off group is for -12/-156.

At the end 16 men are left standing out of its starting strength of 873.

5.      On the 32nd Division sector the 3/322nd is assaulted as I expected. This was followed up by fierce fighting along most of the front. The Russians give as good as they get though.

The good news is that two Tank Brigades have been released and the Germans have been delayed another few turns I hope on the advance on Sememychi.

The bad news is that the 4th Sappers and 666th Artillery just went ammo low. I suppose this is a good time to move the 666th further back although I don't think its in immediate danger.

The Russian player has a few decisions to make. What to do with the Tank Brigades. Hold Sememychi and lose another Bn? The 32nd Division is in a tough spot. I think they are in danger of becoming isolated from the main front? We will see.

VP and losses below.