Minsk ´44 - 5th GTA is Commited

[Kool Kat]

Kool Kat,

I think Minsk 44 was at the time of its release, a long overdue PzC game which addressed the many other PzC's, which were not really much fun to play as a Russian player. The only other similar one that comes to mind previous to this titles release was Stalingrad 42.
If you wish to play this title as the Axis then you have to accept the historical situation as it was at the time, the same as the Russian players have had to do with most of the other PzC titles.

Cheers,

Gordon

Gordon:

I do accept (or at least have played) the historical situations of several Minsk '44 scenarios:

The Long Left Flank
The Bobruysk Bypass
They Stood at Orsha
The Last Ditch Effort

In the above listed scenarios, given skilled and near perfect play by the German player, there is a chance to etch out a Draw or better in the following scenarios:

The Long Left Flank
The Last Ditch Effort

In The Bobruysk Bypass and They Stood at Orsha, the best the German player can achieve is to limit the Russians to a Minor Victory. Even in these two scenarios, given competent and skilled German play, battle field conditions do not entirely unravel and collapse until the end game turns.

However, in The 5th GTA is Committed, the scenario begins with hundreds of German units in immediate danger of being surrounded, front lines unstable, and an impossible to defend northern sector. The combat situation is chaotic, and already unraveling even before the German commander sits down to plot out his first turn! Given these battle field conditions, between equal skilled players, a German Draw is not achievable. A German Minor or Major victory are impossibilities.

My negative reaction to playing the Germans in The 5th GTA is Committed is not that I don't accept the historical conditions, but that the scenario designers have developed a scenario that does not allow the German player any chance of even etching out a Draw.

Why play a scenario - especially a 44-turn one, in which your side is guaranteed either a Minor or Major Defeat? 

For me, I would rather invest my limited gaming time into more enjoyable and rewarding scenarios - ones in which skilled and competent play is rewarded with at least the possibility of a Draw.

[Gordons HQ]

Kool Kat,

I think Minsk 44 was at the time of its release, a long overdue PzC game which addressed the many other PzC's, which were not really much fun to play as a Russian player. The only other similar one that comes to mind previous to this titles release was Stalingrad 42.
If you wish to play this title as the Axis then you have to accept the historical situation as it was at the time, the same as the Russian players have had to do with most of the other PzC titles.

Cheers,

Gordon

Gordon:

I do accept (or at least have played) the historical situations of several Minsk '44 scenarios:

The Long Left Flank
The Bobruysk Bypass
They Stood at Orsha
The Last Ditch Effort

In the above listed scenarios, given skilled and near perfect play by the German player, there is a chance to etch out a Draw or better in the following scenarios:

The Long Left Flank
The Last Ditch Effort

In The Bobruysk Bypass and They Stood at Orsha, the best the German player can achieve is to limit the Russians to a Minor Victory. Even in these two scenarios, given competent and skilled German play, battle field conditions do not entirely unravel and collapse until the end game turns.

However, in The 5th GTA is Committed, the scenario begins with hundreds of German units in immediate danger of being surrounded, front lines unstable, and an impossible to defend northern sector. The combat situation is chaotic,  and already unraveling even before the German commander sits down to plot out his first turn! Given these battle field conditions, between equal skilled players, a German Draw is not achievable. A German Minor or Major victory are impossibilities.

My negative reaction to playing the Germans in The 5th GTA is Committed is not that I don't accept the historical conditions, but that the scenario designers have developed a scenario that does not allow the German player any chance of even etching out a Draw.

Why play a scenario - especially a 44-turn one, in which your side is guaranteed either a Minor or Major Defeat? 

For me, I would rather invest my limited gaming time into more enjoyable and rewarding scenarios - ones in which skilled and competent play is rewarded with at least the possibility of a Draw.

Hi Kool Kat,

This historical situation was brought about by the absolute German commander, Hitler and his no retreat policies.

I do however take your all your points in regard to playing this one as valid for PBEM and should really have in the description something like,
"This is best only played as Russians v AI"  and thereby saving a lot of wasted effort.

Cheers,

Gordon

[Gunther Sheepdog]

Kool Kat,

I think Minsk 44 was at the time of its release, a long overdue PzC game which addressed the many other PzC's, which were not really much fun to play as a Russian player. The only other similar one that comes to mind previous to this titles release was Stalingrad 42.
If you wish to play this title as the Axis then you have to accept the historical situation as it was at the time, the same as the Russian players have had to do with most of the other PzC titles.

Cheers,

Gordon

Gordon:

I do accept (or at least have played) the historical situations of several Minsk '44 scenarios:

The Long Left Flank
The Bobruysk Bypass
They Stood at Orsha
The Last Ditch Effort

In the above listed scenarios, given skilled and near perfect play by the German player, there is a chance to etch out a Draw or better in the following scenarios:

The Long Left Flank
The Last Ditch Effort

In The Bobruysk Bypass and They Stood at Orsha, the best the German player can achieve is to limit the Russians to a Minor Victory. Even in these two scenarios, given competent and skilled German play, battle field conditions do not entirely unravel and collapse until the end game turns.

However, in The 5th GTA is Committed, the scenario begins with hundreds of German units in immediate danger of being surrounded, front lines unstable, and an impossible to defend northern sector. The combat situation is chaotic,  and already unraveling even before the German commander sits down to plot out his first turn! Given these battle field conditions, between equal skilled players, a German Draw is not achievable. A German Minor or Major victory are impossibilities.

My negative reaction to playing the Germans in The 5th GTA is Committed is not that I don't accept the historical conditions, but that the scenario designers have developed a scenario that does not allow the German player any chance of even etching out a Draw.

Why play a scenario - especially a 44-turn one, in which your side is guaranteed either a Minor or Major Defeat? 

For me, I would rather invest my limited gaming time into more enjoyable and rewarding scenarios - ones in which skilled and competent play is rewarded with at least the possibility of a Draw.

Hi Kool Kat,

This historical situation was brought about by the absolute German commander, Hitler and his no retreat policies.

I do however take your all your points in regard to playing this one as valid for PBEM and should really have in the description something like,
"This is best only played as Russians v AI"  and thereby saving a lot of wasted effort.

Cheers,

Gordon

[Fhil]

So, let me throw some comments too, as this was originally my post. I´m glad there is this debate regarding the scenario.

 Now, when you look at the statistics about the scenario, there are two Axis wins. I am also playing Germans here, we´re finishing the second day (around turn 20). Most of my frontline units are badly mauled, destroyed, disrupted, broken or alread on the march to Soviet gulags. But my opponent, which plays very good I must say, is not winning yet. Some of my units are still tring to escape from being pocketed, maybe few of them will make it though.

 I also want to say, that it´s not a problem for me if I know I will loose. If the game itself is enjoyable, my opponent plays fairly without any weird tricks some players tend to use and the battle situation is interesting, I´m playing.
 The same I can say about the Stalingrad scenario - Winter Storm. It is impossible to win against a competent Soviet commander, but it was one of the best games I was playing. A lot depends on your opponent and his style of play. I don´t like style like mixing 30 diferent divisional units on the same hex, Army HQs roaming two hexes away from the front, AA guns doing recon and similar stuff. If this is avoided, I don´t have problems playing a lost game. But this game is not lost yet. I may post a picture or two tomorrow, but I have to first talk to my opponent not to look here 

[Kool Kat]

Now, when you look at the statistics about the scenario, there are two Axis wins.

Hey Phil:  

Yes. There are two Axis wins.

However, in both instances, the German players had a better .200 + win ratio over their Russian opponents. In other words, both of the recorded German wins were not against equal skilled players.

Glad you are enjoying your game!