Teamproject "Hell gate: The Breakout from Cherkassy“

[Ragnar]

Hello everyone. Since several years I think about to build a large scenario about the battle of Cherkassy or more the breakout from the pocket 16th to 17. of February 1944.   As everyone knows this battle involved numerous formations on both sides. From playing yarious JTCS scenarios I am aware that it is difficult to control and move more than three divisions. The whole idea is to create a teamgame 3 vs 3 (or even 4 vs 4) on map around 60 km wide and long. Unfortunately I do neither have the time to build or test this on my own. So maybe someone like to join me or even pick up this idea.

From my grandfather who fought in this battle I have a quite rate book with several good first eye reports, maps and order of battle. https://www.amazon.de/Kessel-von-Tscherkassy-1944-Dokumentation/dp/3927125156
He served the entire war in the east with the 5th SS Divsion and never talked much about it. The only exception was the pocket of Cherkassy which gave the idea for this scenario. I've created some human vs. KI scenarios already in the past which I consider „ok, not very good“ as I lacked of skills back than, but finished a large H2H this february called „black sea black death“ which can be found in the testing area at the moment.

There is nothing written by me yet. Only some rough thought in my mind, but before I go into detail the first step is to find people who are interested in such a project.

[Dan Caviness]

Karsten is that you?

Yes...I believe it is...how many guys do I know with a Grandfather who served in the 5th SS?

What you have in front of you, as you well know, is a formidable task.

I could possibly be of service in creating the multiplayer version, as it sounds like that is one of your tasks ahead.

However, I don't believe I can create an OOB that large.
I've been down this path before...and it's an incredible amount of work.

Worse still...you might want to wait for the new revision of the game...as I'm told it will no longer support the original games we have all created. I'm sure some sort of "guerrilla" group will continue to play the old version, the old silver back gorillas, but otherwise I'm afraid we are ALL wasting our time.

I understand the reasons why, but it does sting a bit when you look at years and years of work, all of which will very soon come to naught. No worries...I'll be stuffing a coffin pretty soon in anycase...;)

Regards,

Dan

[Ragnar]

Yes it's me Dan. I still play and hang in this old game.....but as we see in the Marle-discussion the overall interest in the game is declining. Very sad as personally I think the game offers a lot.

Thanks for your offer and input. Maybe you are right it might be a waste of time to create it of JTCS.
Also the OOB would be really large....I assume in total 20-25 Divisions at least. In my "Black sea black death" scenario I had around 6 divisions total and worked on is for several months.

I should reconsider the project with the options:

1. drive it down totally
2. focus just on the Wiking sector (or another specific division)
3. split the scenario in several smaller ones
4. scale it up (Platoons become companies, Cp become btl. and so one)
5. Look for another game like TOAW which focus on a higher OOB level
6. LOL...play Panzer General 2 to kick some xxx.

No idea yet. But except your helpfull comment the response was quite dissappointing.

Cheers

Karsten

[zap]

@ Dan
Holy crap! Now there's discussion material that stings even the non designers. I hope there is a way to port them over. That's been kept hush-hush. Now, two things rubbing me the wrong way. Also changing the chit colors for EFIII.

[Herr Straße Laufer]

1. drive it down totally
2. focus just on the Wiking sector (or another specific division)
3.  split the scenario in several smaller ones
4.  scale it up (Platoons become companies,  Cp become btl. and so one)
5.  Look for another game like TOAW which focus on a higher OOB level
6.  LOL...play Panzer General 2 to kick some xxx.

No idea yet. But except your helpfull comment the response was quite dissappointing.

I have been staying out of discussions that could devolve into arguments.

Sorry you are disappointed that no one participated.

Here are my thoughts to the above (with game scale and play-ability at the forefront):

1. Yes, it's too big for the game scale (simply, the scenario is bigger than ever intended by the originators. Sort of like the board war game design that has so many maps you need to play it on the floor of a gym).
2. Yes, a division size could push the game scale but I would have to base that on the amount of turns for the scenario.
3. Most definitely. To stay within scale, making smaller scenarios that together have a theme would be ideal.
4. No. Please respect game scale. Use the units as intended.
5. If you need the larger scale (see above answer to #4) then yes, do TOAW it's more what you want regarding scale than JTCS.
6. I gave up on PG years ago when they went 3-D. And, for many other reasons.



HSL

[Herr Straße Laufer]

@ Dan
Holy crap! Now there's discussion material that stings even the non designers. I hope there is a way to port them over. That's been kept hush-hush. Now, two things rubbing me the wrong way. Also changing the chit colors for EFIII.

LOL!  

Zap. You are just now figuring that out?

Why do you think I've been so pissed for so long?

At least when East Front became EFII they had classic scenarios that moved from one to the other.

EFIII will have no connectivity to EF at all unless they have some developers/designers recreate the old scenarios into new ones.
After the crap scenarios that were created for the first ME I have no confidence that any scenario created for EFIII will be worth playing. Yes, my opinion! I hope I am wrong and will not waste $50 finding out.



HSL

[Dan Caviness]

NOT trying to start a rumble here...although with my history (ancient for the most part) I could see where you may believe otherwise.  Ho ho...  I exchanged emails with Jason on the matter a month or two ago and he explained it's some sort of coding limitation (way over my head guys) and there really wasn't a lot they could do about it.

On the PLUS side Jason did indicate our MAPS at least should be "transferable" as it were.

Of course...my problem...I love making maps...and I hate making OOBs.
Not hate really, more of a case of having that hot blonde finally come through and finding out she was just as full of crap as the rest of 'em...  The OOB requires dedication and sacrifice!...lol...

Overall, it sucks a bit, but if there is ANY game that has stuck with it's old timers and did all it could do to support them and their irascible ways (Ed?...lol...) this game HAS to be at the top of the list.  As irascible as most, with a tendency towards persnickety'ism, I throw no stones.

If we really are passionate about the scenarios, it gives us a chance to recreate them, and possibly even make them better.  The glass half full version.

That being said...I'm not jumping into any more BIG scenarios right away.  This is actually a point in Ed's favor when considering the plus' and minus' of the really big scenarios.  If something does cause them to become extinct, you're only losing a few weeks/month's work instead of years and years.

The old game will still be there...and if we all keep taking our meds...and swear off tequila...we may be able to keep it going until we all are stuffing a coffin.

So Mr. Karsten...I guess I'd suggest you wait for the new revision and then jump in the deep end.

Regards,

Dan

[zap]

I was in on III before I heard this, now not so much.
Initial changes did not bother me because most were options one could choose. But loosing all the great scenarios now that is a big issue. And why change the colors of the chits? So scenarios from II can only be recreated  (as Dan says the OoB's are a lot of work). How many designers are going to want to do that amount of work?  Dan I'm guessing you can't simply copy/cut and paste the OOB's from the old to the new?
It looks to me like connectivity between II and III has been lost almost completely.

[Warhorse]

Guys, I really think everyone is really being overdramatic about this. Much is being added to the game, as was said, the maps will port, unless a scenario is some monster, recreating scenario's/oob's is no big deal either, it can be done via Notepad and such. I've been playing Campaign Series since the original East Front came out, that game started me modding back then as well. I'm NOT giving up on this Series, I'm embracing all the new enhancements that will attract even more scenario designs of better quality. However, the old will still be around for those who choose to stay with it, I'm going forward, and would so even if I wasn't on the devel team! Time will tell, but try to stick with us!

[Dan Caviness]

Hey Phil/Hey Ed:

To be clear...I am probably not the most proficient when it comes to dealing with those large OOB files.
Others may have shortcuts I am unaware of.
A real programmer like Jason snaps his fingers and it dances for him.
For me it's a grind.
Commanders, adding the CORRECT transports, naming and keeping my Sturmbahnführer's straight from my Sturmhauptführer's, not to mention 1st and 2nd Lt's, and mining the OOB hierarchy to find the closest unit structures equivalent to your planned scenario.

If it wasn't for the OOB editor...I would never have learned that "alt129" get you an ümlaüt.
(Apologies to my German friends...I realize I mißpelled)

Again...NOT trying to be an arse here...the designers have sweated gonads over these OOB files, and over the years they have created a lot of really unique units and organizations.  Coincidentally, what they have also created is a data hogging monster that sinks my computer for about 4-5 minutes just OPENING the OOB Editor.  YIKES!
It's like unleashing the Kraken...;)
But in a good way.

Much of my problem is self inflicted...if you make a Size 4 scenario...you have a manageable OOB...if you recreate 60 miles of Normandy coastline...and half the German Army not to mention the US and English...well...those OOBs are a different animal.  The last time I tried to open my Normandy OOB...my PC pulled it's own plug in protest...

The worst part of a huge OOB?
Make one little error.
You won't, you'll make dozens if not hundreds, but for the sake of argument let's say you have one tiny problem with a unit.
Make that error with, oh, let's say, a reinforcement.  Or not...it won't be easy no matter how you slice it...
Then go track that little devil down.
You'll need new fingernails by the time you get there...lol...

The OOB is a labor of love.
It can be clunky for me, but most times I enjoy it.
It just happens to my personal albatross.

I believe the reason I can enjoy it is I know when I'm done...it's SCENARIO editor time...where the REAL fun begins!

All good guys.
It is a shame our work can't be paid forward (and thank you Robert Heinlein for that quote that is finally catching on) as we all have a significant amount of blood sweat and beers invested here.

One thing about gaming, nothing is permanent.
Maybe Chess?
But otherwise...it's a transitory and impermanent artform...continually reinvented by the next generation...so you must face that fact when you decide it's what you need to do in order to feed your creative spirit animal.

The BEST part of this is we are STILL out there...knee deep in the rice paddies...slugging it out with Charlie...


Regards,

Dan