JTCS - Viet Nam

[Big Ivan]

Hi Outlaw Josey Wales,

CSEE stands for Campaign Series Event Engine.

ItB

[Jason Petho]

Then you are manufacturing new parameters? A vehicle can go only so fast and shoot within a six minute time frame. It's physics? Making 10 minutes is not physically possible unless you change how far a unit can move and shoot.

HSL

No, you're misunderstanding.

What you seem to think was created at 6 minutes, were actually created at 10 minutes already. The unit parameters from the beginning were done at 10 minutes.

Why they decided to put 6 minutes in the manual, who knows. But looking at how the unit parameters were created (in order to create new units) shows that the parameters were all created with 10 minutes in mind.

Take that for what it is worth, but that's how it was done.

[Crossroads]

Then you are manufacturing new parameters? A vehicle can go only so fast and shoot within a six minute time frame. It's physics? Making 10 minutes is not physically possible unless you change how far a unit can move and shoot.

HSL

No, you're misunderstanding.

What you seem to think was created at 6 minutes, were actually created at 10 minutes already. The unit parameters from the beginning were done at 10 minutes.

Why they decided to put 6 minutes in the manual, who knows. But looking at how the unit parameters were created (in order to create new units) shows that the parameters were all created with 10 minutes in mind.

Take that for what it is worth, but that's how it was done.

Yes, that is how it was done. It is not an opinion, these are the facts. We created quite a complex excel sheet for instance to study the movement parameters set in the game. How infantry moves, how vehicles move, and how, in turn, their speed was marked in the unit database (platoonNN.oob), clearly indicates a rate of ten minute turns. 

Infantry, for instance, if you take the old manual at face value, and calculate ten turns to an hour (six minute turns), they basically go about running at modern marathon winners rate. In full gear and boots, too. 

Also, the artillery rate of fire etc, two fire missions per turn, those clearly translate towards ten minute turns. 

Avalon Hill Arab-Israeli Wars boardgame corrected the original unit values from Panzerblitz and Panzer Leader, but they stuck to what the manual said and changed the movement values on counters. AIW manual also indicates how to calculate the PB and PL counter values so that they would be realistic. 

We, in turn, won't be doing that. We keep the units and unit parameters as they are, and correct the inaccurate "six minute turns" definition in the manual. Units remain, turn definition changes.

[Herr Straße Laufer]

So you are stating that a tank that moves at 25 miles per hour is based on 10 minutes?

Yet when you do the math, which we have done many times in the past, a tank moving over 250 meter hexes will go the distance in a six minute period. At ten minutes it would go further.



HSL

[Crossroads]

Yes, that is the formula how it is calculated. Then, when you look at how far the units can travel per terrain type, you will notice the marathon runners that many of the infantry foot units are, for instance. The data values would be out of whack, if you calculate ten turns to an hour. But if you calculate six turns to an hour, then they make sense. Hence, the change in manual description, and not in unit data.

[Crossroads]

A couple of examples, in case any of you guys is interested to look at things under the hood.

Infantry. For instance, WF Bootcamp 1, and the US Rifle Platoon 44 grunts there. Have a look at them with Arkady's Unit Viewer, you will notice their (Road) Speed is set at 10. (10 kmh to be precise).

Infantry (and any unit type) movement rate is defined in Movement.pdt, or in its encrypted format, pdx rather. If you open the pdt file, what you will find is four sets of intimidating looking tables. Those tables are the movement rates for the fourteen unit types covered within the JTCS game: Tracked, Halftrack, Armored Car, Truck, Wagon, Foot, Motorcycle, Train, Ski, Horse, Boat, Raft, Air, and Ship.

The four sets are for movement rates under Normal, Soft, Mud, and Snow. (As of CSME 2.0, we've added two more to accommodate for the coming East Front game: Frozen, and Deep Snow).

Then, each column represents a unique terrain type, first one being Clear, and then all the others. First all full hex terrain types, then all Hex Side types. I am pretty sure all new terrain types such as Airfield etc were added to the end, so the first ten columns for instance would be Clear, (Deep) Water, Forest, Marsh, Building, Village, City, Beach, Orchard, and Rough. Then Shallow (Water), Impassable (all 0s), Industrial, Field (as of CSME 2.0: Grain Field), Suburb, Swamp, and Vineyard. And on they go, CS has a ton of terrain types, which is very nice of course.

A value of "0" means the unit type / conditions / hex type does not allow said unit entering a hex of that type at all, otherwise there's the movement cost there. A unit can always enter a hex once, regardless of cost, so like with Forest having a cost of "8000", those units can enter it using all their Action points.

Foot movement on Normal under Road terrain is there, somewhere (my helper tool accomodates for the latest revision, I have the old helper somewhere ...), where the movement rate on Paved Road is "100". As for most other land moving units as well, meaning that on paved roads the units can move at the default Speed set at its platoon**.oob file.

Rifle Infantry 44 with its Speed of "10" and Paved Road parameter "100" then has its hex entry cost calculated, resulting in 25 in this case. Formula uses the 6 minutes turns ie. 10 turns to an hour conversion, meaning Rifle'44 can enter four Paved Road hexes each turn. Four * 250 meters is one kilometer per turn, with 10 turns to an hour they ten travel the set 10 kmh.

Each turn, turn after turn, right? Wrong. They can march at Double every other turn, meaning one turn they march 1000 meters, the next one 1250 meters, on average, within an hour, 11 250 meters to be precise.

That obviously would not make sense, but as we are not changing unit data, to keep the game performing as it was, hence the definition of 10 minute turns. With 10 minute turns, six turns to an hour, without Double Time, they could march six kilometers to an hour. More plausible, isn't it.

But it is not just the movement rates. For instance, WW2 era Artillery is supposed to spot, receive fire priority, range, and barrage two fire missions into each 6 minute turns, turn after turn. 3 minutes per Fire mission. Quite inplausible. To say they could to that for each 5 minute set, still a challenge, but at least plausible.

Hope this explains this better.

[Herr Straße Laufer]

I guess I will have to "take it for what it is" ... worthless.



HSL

[Crossroads]

What is worthless? That is what is there, currently.

[Hawk Kriegsman]

Scale is scale. Six minutes is what gives parameters to how units move on the map.

My mistake, the recent calculations suggests that the Talonsoft units parameters were created at 10 minutes, not 6 minutes.

Sigh.....why must go through this again.  Exactly how it is written in the following:

Talonsoft's East Front Player's Guide: Copy Right 1997 Page 1: (A Game Turn is equivalent to 6 minutes of real time.)

Talonsoft's East Front Campaign CD1: Player's Guide Copy Right 1997 Page 1: A Game Turn is equivalent to about 6 minutes of real time.

Talonsoft's West Front Player's Guide: Copy Right 1998 Page 2:
(A Game Turn is equivalent to about 6 minutes of real time.)

Talonsof's Rising Sun Player's Guide: Copy Right 1999 Page 17:

Game Scale & Stacking
The game scale is 6 minutes per Game Turn and 250 meters per hex (exceptions: Game Turns during a Night scenario represent a longer period of time due to units normally moving slower at night, and the scale of some smaller islands maps has been "stretched" slightly for playability's sake).

Talonsoft's East Front II Player's Guide Copy Right 1999 Page 2: Turns are equivalent to approximately 6 minutes of real time.

Matrix Games JTCS Player's Guide Copy Right 2010 Page 12: Turns are equivalent to approximately 6 minutes of real time.

It was not until the 2.01 June 2014 update that poof...……………..all mentions of time scale were deleted.

So once Jim Rose, Bob McNamara, Joseph Hummel and Charles Kibler come on these forums and say our bad it was always meant to be 10 minutes per turn then I will capitulate.

However until the developers at Matrix redesign the game with a proper time scale with its accordingly proper unit scale you won't see a single cent from me.

[Jason Petho]

However until the developers at Matrix redesign the game with a proper time scale with its accordingly proper unit scale

Oh good! That's precisely what we're doing! Yay!