Night Distribution Percentage

[Mr Grumpy]

Well this a really useful discussion for the players because ultimately they need to know how this rule works from series to series, so lets hope we can come to a definitive conclusion on this point. 

Thank you everyone for your feedback/input.

[76mm]

The attacking units, in my experience, do always disrupt? Do either of you have examples where they don't? Quality modifiers included, I have not seen A quality troops not disrupt at night, when winning an assault, that I recall.

Honestly seems odd that this confusion exists in a twenty year old game series. I can state unequivocally, with certainty, that units in PzC games (at least all of them that I've played) DO NOT disrupt automatically at night, or actually or as far as I can tell, any more than they disrupt during the day.

I'm currently playing the Moscow 42 large Fall Kreml campaign and have literally conducted several hundred, if not thousands, of night assaults in just this one scenario. It has been the same in all of the other campaigns that I've played in other games.

[76mm]

Ah yes, units will automatically disrupt in night assaults, even successful ones (but they will take the hex though). I just verified it with A quality units and in several successful assaults they all disrupted.

Yes, I was referring to PzC because a few comments later the discussion was based off of something I said, so I had to clarify from the FWWC perspective.

Sorry, but that is not how it works in PzC (or at least the games that I own)--units assaulting at night generally do not disrupt regardless of whether or not they advance into the hex or not. Of course sometimes units assaulting at night are disrupted--just as units assaulting by day. Someone mentioned that the chance of disrupting at night during an assault is twice as high, independent of night disruption settings; I can't say that I've noticed this but it is hard to say since I don't know the initial disruption probability.

[Tanker Mike]

Ah yes, units will automatically disrupt in night assaults, even successful ones (but they will take the hex though). I just verified it with A quality units and in several successful assaults they all disrupted.

 
FWISW, I am currently playing a Bulge '44 Gold campaign game. I just did two successful night close assaults with my German Volksgrenadiers with no disruptions.

Mike

[76mm]

I can post a German night turn from my Moscow 42 game if any one wants to take a look, there are a couple of dozen assault opportunities to test this with. I just took a spin through the turn, none of the A or B quality units ever disrupted after a successful assault. C & D quality units disrupted sometimes. I don't recall what the night disruption setting is, but German units definitely can become disrupted when moving at night, so it is non-zero.

[Mr Grumpy]

Again guys thank you for the feedback it is all very useful for us to sort out what the facts are here.   

Can you look at your M42 PDT and let us know what the night disruption % is (just out of interest).

Just a comment for 76mm, the night disruption movement rule is a recent addition to PzC, it was introduced when F14 was launched a few years back and was added to the PzC series at the Gold makeover, I have been informed that many of the older PzC titles have this setting in the PDT at 0% (S41 for example) and so for those titles this rule would have no effect on night assault disruption whatsoever, IMO that is the reason why it has only come to light recently that this rule is not fully understood across the two series (PzC/FWWC) .  

[Mr Grumpy]

Also originally in FWWC the percentage was set to 100% and it states explicitly in the manual that night assault will always result in the attackers being disrupted, so there is no doubt how this rule works as far as FWWC is concerned. 

However for PzC there seems to be some doubt. 

[bdtj1815]

Again guys thank you for the feedback it is all very useful for us to sort out what the facts are here.   

Can you look at your M42 PDT and let us know what the night disruption % is (just out of interest).

Just a comment for 76mm, the night disruption movement rule is a recent addition to PzC, it was introduced when F14 was launched a few years back and was added to the PzC series at the Gold makeover, I have been informed that many of the older PzC titles have this setting in the PDT at 0% (S41 for example) and so for those titles this rule would have no effect on night assault disruption whatsoever, IMO that is the reason why it has only come to light recently that this rule is not fully understood across the two series (PzC/FWWC) .  

I think you will find the night disruption optional rule long before when the WWI titles were released.

For Bulge'44 for instance it came with version 1.09.

Changes for Bulge '44 1.09: - Added new Night Move Disruption parameter data value which determines
      probability of night movement by non-rail and non-travel or
      non-road movement units causing Disruption.

I cannot give you an exact date but think it is about ten years ago.

This I think was the first message on this forum concerning the idea from 2007:

Bdtj1815 wrote: One idea I had was that there should be a % chance of disrupting when moving at night not in T-mode on a road, variable on the rating of the unit (A class maybe 5%, E 85% for instance) to represent the better abilities of well trained units. Don't know if it is even possible to do or maybe someone could think of something better or if it is something worth considering.

Yes, that was me!

[Green]

Also originally in FWWC the percentage was set to 100% and it states explicitly in the manual that night assault will always result in the attackers being disrupted, so there is no doubt how this rule works as far as FWWC is concerned. 

However for PzC there seems to be some doubt. 

I am not sure there is any doubt. It is very easy to test. With the exception of Volcano Man, who is perhaps still doubtful, no one else is as far as I can see.  

The question was, in PzC do assaulting units automatically Disrupt at night if the Night Move Disruption value is non-zero. The answer is a definite no. Once again I may be missing something but why would there be any debate about this?

[Mr Grumpy]

Again guys thank you for the feedback it is all very useful for us to sort out what the facts are here.   

Can you look at your M42 PDT and let us know what the night disruption % is (just out of interest).

Just a comment for 76mm, the night disruption movement rule is a recent addition to PzC, it was introduced when F14 was launched a few years back and was added to the PzC series at the Gold makeover, I have been informed that many of the older PzC titles have this setting in the PDT at 0% (S41 for example) and so for those titles this rule would have no effect on night assault disruption whatsoever, IMO that is the reason why it has only come to light recently that this rule is not fully understood across the two series (PzC/FWWC) .  

I think you will find the night disruption optional rule long before when the WWI titles were released.

For Bulge'44 for instance it came with version 1.09.

Changes for Bulge '44 1.09: - Added new Night Move Disruption parameter data value which determines
      probability of night movement by non-rail and non-travel or
      non-road movement units causing Disruption.

I cannot give you an exact date but think it is about ten years ago.

This I think was the first message on this forum concerning the idea from 2007:

Bdtj1815 wrote: One idea I had was that there should be a % chance of disrupting when moving at night not in T-mode on a road, variable on the rating of the unit (A class maybe 5%, E 85% for instance) to represent the better abilities of well trained units. Don't know if it is even possible to do or maybe someone could think of something better or if it is something worth considering.

Yes, that was me!

OK thanks for putting me right about that!   

My point is still relevant that although the feature was added back at the time B44 was launched it seems that has not been universally used by designers since then and hence is not as well known as other features, well not in the 6 or 7 PzC titles I have played over the years (all were launched after B44) so not that I matters I wonder if the rule was (at the time) specifically aimed at B44 which of course was a battle fought in the depths of winter.

It is the same for the partisan/patrol features, we have had several people say they have never set their units to patrol and have almost forgotten the feature exists.