Serbia '14

[ComradeP]

In the Fourth Invasion scenario, the Allied -5 rail capacity decrease is applied daily and cumulatively on the 00:00 turn starting on the 14th of October, not just once on the 14th of October. Starting on the 15th of October, rail capacity is 0.

[ComradeP]

After some discussion with my opponent Elxaime for the 4th Invasion scenario and my Central Powers and Serbian experience in the 1st Invasion scenario, I'd like to discuss Chetniks.

Currently, they feel overpowered. They have a 3 hex Deception effect radius and Patrolling only works if the Patrolling unit is 1-2 hexes away from the Chetnik unit as the Deception unit has to be in range of the Patrolling effect. Switching to Patrolling requires full movement points, so you can't switch to Patrolling after moving.

If the Serbian player mixes Chetniks with frontline troops, which even when not done deliberately is difficult to avoid in some situations when moving units around, most if not all T-mode movement will result in the moving Central Powers units becoming Disrupted. This is particularly tricky for the low quality Austro-Hungarian units. A detached, Out of Command, Disrupted D quality HQ has No Morale, for example.

Support weapons like MG's and Field Guns can't be brought up to the frontline or moved away from them without a Patrolling unit covering the Chetnik unit. That makes retreating quite difficult for the Central Powers as well, particularly in difficult terrain where you would ideally use the road network.

The ability to shut down T-mode movement along lengthy portions of the frontline (there's no shortage of Chetniks usually) is very powerful and I would say not historically accurate, as the Deception effect moves "through" the frontline.

Decreasing the radius to 2 hexes could work, but that wouldn't remove the problem when Chetnik units are stacked with combat units at the frontline.

Maybe the Chetniks are meant to infiltrate behind Central Powers lines, but that would make the issues even worse.

[Elxaime]

After some discussion with my opponent Elxaime for the 4th Invasion scenario and my Central Powers and Serbian experience in the 1st Invasion scenario, I'd like to discuss Chetniks.

Currently, they feel overpowered. They have a 3 hex Deception effect radius and Patrolling only works if the Patrolling unit is 1-2 hexes away from the Chetnik unit as the Deception unit has to be in range of the Patrolling effect. Switching to Patrolling requires full movement points, so you can't switch to Patrolling after moving.

If the Serbian player mixes Chetniks with frontline troops, which even when not done deliberately is difficult to avoid in some situations when moving units around, most if not all T-mode movement will result in the moving Central Powers units becoming Disrupted. This is particularly tricky for the low quality Austro-Hungarian units. A detached, Out of Command, Disrupted D quality HQ has No Morale, for example.

Support weapons like MG's and Field Guns can't be brought up to the frontline or moved away from them without a Patrolling unit covering the Chetnik unit. That makes retreating quite difficult for the Central Powers as well, particularly in difficult terrain where you would ideally use the road network.

The ability to shut down T-mode movement along lengthy portions of the frontline (there's no shortage of Chetniks usually) is very powerful and I would say not historically accurate, as the Deception effect moves "through" the frontline.

Decreasing the radius to 2 hexes could work, but that wouldn't remove the problem when Chetnik units are stacked with combat units at the frontline.

Maybe the Chetniks are meant to infiltrate behind Central Powers lines, but that would make the issues even worse.

As my esteemed opponent in 4th Invasion describes, the partisan effect means units that require T mode to move spend most of the game disrupted, since the effect reaches across even massive front line stacks.

The partisan effects in FFWC are a system that was imported from their use in other titles.  

I can only speak to Bagration 44' for their use in WW2 era titles.  There, the Soviet partisans start far behind the German front.  I can't recall if the deception range is 4, I believe it was.  But the modeling seemed OK given the battle occurred during summer, meaning movement rates were higher and also the Axis had artillery and air power to deal with them.

In MC titles like Danube 85', movement rates are high, and artillery and airpower are so powerful, that the deception units work pretty well - they have a powerful impact but can be countered.

For WW1, especially Serbia 14 where weather and mud slows movement to a crawl, the partisan impacts multiply.  There is no real counter, since indirect artillery takes a while to get set up and there is no meaningful air attack capability (both of the latter being historical).  Not sure whether this is intended, but the reality ends up being most Central Powers machine gun and artillery units spend the game disrupted once they near the front lines.  As pointed out, patrolling doesn't help since the deception range is greater.  As increasing patrolling range would have a potentially imbalance impact pro-CP, since it would enable them to use indirect fire farther into the Serb rear than historically they were able to, perhaps the solution lies elsewhere.

[KAreil]

Very interested in this discussion, I'm still in my first campaign game but have already developed a serious chetnik paranoia.

One thing I find especially hard to understand is why the Patrolling does not work if the chetnik unit is 3 hexes away. Wouldn't it be more logical if the Patrolling would create a protected 2 hex ring?

[Elxaime]

Very interested in this discussion, I'm still in my first campaign game but have already developed a serious chetnik paranoia.

One thing I find especially hard to understand is why the Patrolling does not work if the chetnik unit is 3 hexes away. Wouldn't it be more logical if the Patrolling would create a protected 2 hex ring?

That is initially what I believed it did.  But actually, the partisan unit itself has to be within the 2 hex range of an active patrolling unit at the start of the turn, which then cancels its partisan disruption ability (even for hexes outside the patrolled hexes, I believe).  However, not sure the game engine can handle doing it another way.

[KAreil]

It has to be at the start of the turn?
So even activating Patrolling within 2 hexes of the chetnik and then moving other units in the same turn has no protection?

I did that wrong until now...

[ComradeP]

I also initially thought the Patrolling radius nullified Deception effects in the area covered, until I read the user manual again.

The Chetnik unit has to be in range of a Patrolling unit at any point during the turn in order to nullify the Deception effect for units moving through the Deception radius in T-mode. It doesn't have to be covered by a Patrolling unit at the start of the turn, just prior to moving anything in T-mode in the radius.

When retreating, it's often possible to coordinate units like cavalry switching to Patrolling to cover Chetniks moving up so other units can move away in T-mode, but it can be very problematic when advancing.

[Mr Grumpy]

The decision as to how this feature works was not mine so I will allow Ed to comment on that, however this is how I have been operating as the AH player when Chetnik units are present......….


The tactic that I use to counter the disruption effect is to treat the moving of MG/FG units as a two move operation, I move a battalion (normally a disrupted one if the Serbs are a hex away) into contact, I have my MG/FG units in T mode ready to advance, the following turn I place the battalion into patrol mode and then move the MG/FG units forward.
The problem comes when you wish to push the MG/FG units into the front line and the Chetnik unit is placed two hex's behind the frontline Serb units and the disruption effect cannot be countered by patrolling, if this is the case then you can't use a disrupted battalion as you leave yourself open to a counter assault when you bring your MG/FG units forward knowing that they have a high chance of being disrupted.

So in this particular situation is it a good idea under normal situations to push these units right under the noses of the Serb front line? If I can deploy the MG/FG on ground a hex behind the AH front line and use ranged fire that is my preferred option, of course this is not always possible and sometimes I accept the fact these units will disrupt but to be honest my experience is that if you have the AH command structure in place with higher level HQ's in command then these units recover quite quickly (but of course there is some luck in that). 


When I first started playing S14 the disruption effect was a bit of a shock, but over time I have just learnt to accept it and just do everything possible to minimise its effect.

[KAreil]

Thanks Mr Grumpy for you insights!

To be honest I had missed that I can use Disrupted units for Patrolling...that makes quite a difference.

[Mr Grumpy]

Yes, I made the same (wrong) assumption early on!