About the 3D graphic of new JT Napoleonic Battles games

[Raymod1986]

Hi, I'm an old HPS Napoleonic Battles (NB) series player, and I'm thinking of buying the newly release NB games John Tiller Software(JT) as some new games(such as Campaign Eylau-Friedland and Republican Bayonets on the Rhine) are only released on JT. 

But when I click into the product page, I find out that in the preview screenshot, the 3D units are shockingly ugly and small (or ugly because of too small) compare to old NB games released on HPS. 

Here's the comparison:

the clear and nice 3D unit graphic from preview image of HPS Austerlitz:


the small and ugly 3D unit graphic from preview image of JT Marengo:


Can someone tell me what's going on with JT's new NB games? Are the 3D unit graphic actually look like this in the new NB games? Is there an in game option allow me turn into the old HPS style graphic? And the last question, will the 3D units turn into this in my old HPS NB game (like Ausertlitz) if I use the update patch on JT website?

[-72-]

It sounds like you might be implying that HPS and JTS are different by virtue of being different publishers, but that wouldn't be the case.  As far as I understand it was the same art team that have done both, and what this is, is probably more of a style change.

Yes, these can be modded to whatever is needed; specifically changing around to ones that work better. It's a fairly big job but I am only talking about the technical issue involved, as well as permissions in the system - it would simply be changing the file.

Sometimes too the underlying map can make the units tough to pick out. 

What I'd done, with the map graphics, is change around various stock terrain graphics from a range of their series (more for reworking some stock graphics for JTS publication the Musket and Pike series, which is [graphically] using nearly identical files ).  I'm probably going to look into expanding this to modding a riverbank/shore hexside - but I haven't had the time to devote to it yet - I'm pretty sure it will make a significant difference -but, well that's more than you asked about.

For what it's worth though, in terms of figures - I tend to agree with you - the Austerlitz ones are a good set to start with, although there might not be similar style figures for all of the nations --so it might be more than changing things around.  I'll have to check that out --- as what you are suggesting is a pretty good idea and might be pretty easily doable (I mean that more specifically for myself in I might do that, as opposed to can it be done .... it definitely can be done).  I'm sure others have already.

There are some other things that I was going to look at working on as well, that you hadn't touched one -- but re-doing some of the leader files to find as many colour portraits as a I can (probably mostly talking about older titles- but I haven't looked at them in all of the titles- I just know that there are some where it can make a big difference (like Wagram ... I assume it is more widespread than that though...).

[Sgt_Rock]

History on this simple: during the production of the Leipzig thru 1814 games I suggested to Mark Adams that folks had been asking for us to use a "Battalion" look to the 3D so that it looks more like a miniatures game. So that is why the 3D looks like that.

Yes, the older 3D look showed off the images better because they were larger. Many liked that look too.

Bottom line is that its impossible to please everyone so we do our best. Sorry if the newer view looks worse to you. Others liked it and have commented to Rich Hamilton and myself about it. The graphics game is a crapshoot all its own. ;)

[-72-]

I'm sort of like Bill in the sense that with miniatures I would prefer a more sweeping look, although personally when I see the newer material that isn't what I am seeing.  A battalion would look rather indistinct at distance. 

Don't believe  that? Put all of the figures that are in a unit on the screen so that they fit into the hex. Not to mention it makes having overly distinct uniform differences entirely pointless. 

I suppose in a full sweep of things, one would adjust the bases so that they are more centered, and probably change the colour combinations (no need to retain just the 8 bit palette ... not to mention if you save the current files as 24 bit but don't add to the colours - technically it is like putting 8 gallons in a 24 gallon tank - you're still only using 8 bits.

You know maybe all hexside graphics ought to be on the table, unit portraits in the older title- swap them out for ones in newer files, change up the older leaders to add in images with colour, change up the leaderbox, and unitbox graphics ...

Probably add some white balance to the terrain files so that the units stand out a little better...

Probably look at 2D unit symbols -- granted it isn't a lot of room on the counters to work with -and of course getting rid of the shadows on the 2D files as they serve no purpose.

Possible get rid of the bevel, at the very least make every counter aligned within its y axis ... and make the x axis point and interval the same for all units (eyeballing it just isn't good enough).

Maybe get some other building sets... more regionally diverse.

Winter does need some work.  The old 8 bit stuff definitely wasn't an answer - but truthfully that is a factor in SYW as well. Musket and Pike as a whole, really.

[Ivenend]

I'm sort of like Bill in the sense that with miniatures I would prefer a more sweeping look, although personally when I see the newer material that isn't what I am seeing.  A battalion would look rather indistinct at distance. 

Don't believe  that? Put all of the figures that are in a unit on the screen so that they fit into the hex. Not to mention it makes having overly distinct uniform differences entirely pointless. 

I suppose in a full sweep of things, one would adjust the bases so that they are more centered, and probably change the colour combinations (no need to retain just the 8 bit palette ... not to mention if you save the current files as 24 bit but don't add to the colours - technically it is like putting 8 gallons in a 24 gallon tank - you're still only using 8 bits.

You know maybe all hexside graphics ought to be on the table, unit portraits in the older title- swap them out for ones in newer files, change up the older leaders to add in images with colour, change up the leaderbox, and unitbox graphics ...

Probably add some white balance to the terrain files so that the units stand out a little better...

Probably look at 2D unit symbols -- granted it isn't a lot of room on the counters to work with -and of course getting rid of the shadows on the 2D files as they serve no purpose.

Possible get rid of the bevel, at the very least make every counter aligned within its y axis ... and make the x axis point and interval the same for all units (eyeballing it just isn't good enough).

Maybe get some other building sets... more regionally diverse.

Winter does need some work.  The old 8 bit stuff definitely wasn't an answer - but truthfully that is a factor in SYW as well. Musket and Pike as a whole, really.

 Talking of the bits, I know currently the game engine can load 24-bit bmp files instead of only the 8-bit bmp files, this is an improvement. 

What I wonder is, would it be possible that the engine loads 32-bit png files? If the engine can do so, that means we can use the alpha channel to make semi-transparent pixels, and then we can make the edges of (various) graphics smooth, that would be another big improvement.

[-72-]

What I wonder is, would it be possible that the engine loads 32-bit png files? If the engine can do so, that means we can use the alpha channel to make semi-transparent pixels, and then we can make the edges of (various) graphics smooth, that would be another big improvement.

The answer, unfortunately, is no -that is one thing that requires a programming change.  I tried it with 32 bit bmps  (pngs wouldn't work because pngs of any type don't work).

What happened is - it never recognised the transparency layer - made it just white. Actually if you are working with layers, get rid of your background colour, make it transparent and add shadows to some of the figures that you know will come up in a scenario (mainly so you don't have to hunt for them once you call up a scenario) --- you'll see what I mean.

It has come up before - and like you, you bet, I would LOVE my transparency layer.  :)

It would be a massive one.

[Raymod1986]

History on this simple: during the production of the Leipzig thru 1814 games I suggested to Mark Adams that folks had been asking for us to use a "Battalion" look to the 3D so that it looks more like a miniatures game. So that is why the 3D looks like that.

Yes, the older 3D look showed off the images better because they were larger. Many liked that look too.

Bottom line is that its impossible to please everyone so we do our best. Sorry if the newer view looks worse to you. Others liked it and have commented to Rich Hamilton and myself about it. The graphics game is a crapshoot all its own. ;)

Ok. Thanks for your reply, and sorry that if what I said is hurtful.

Now I understood what happended. Actually it is good to know JT made this change due to style consideration. I have thought that it was due to JT lost their artist or due to budget cut...

I think I would probably Republican Bayonets on the Rhine (as it is an interesting topic that very few wargame covers) and try to get use to the new 3D art style...

---

By the way, I'm not an expert on computer programing, but can some explain what are the "bits" other people talking about in this thread?

[-72-]

By the way, I'm not an expert on computer programing, but can some explain what are the "bits" other people talking about in this thread?

Sure thing  :)  -it isn't really programming, though, but rather graphics. 

8 bits means that the most colours displayed at any one time is limited to 256. It's why the graphics looked 'grainy' in older titles.

24 bit means that you can have over 16 million colour variations (it's something like 16 million 777 thousand and some change) - although the point is that when doing digital graphics work you have a lot more flexibility.

32 bit - basically there is what is called a transparency layer --- however what that means is that you can add shadows - and not have to use a solid colour  (right now shadows are basically every other pixel being either black or the background colour of the file ... (like a greenscreen ... or the same effect that movies are shot when say you have an actor in front of a starship )...  it is a lot cleaner look.

[Sgt_Rock]

Naw, not offended at all. No matter how the graphics are laid out they wont always appeal to people. Many an alternate graphics pack has come out that I did not want to use. Some are really nice. I love how folks have improved on the 2D look, for instance, to give it softer but not blurry look. :)

[LarkinVB]

So it is advisable to buy the games now as long as the unit graphics are not updated if one stongly prefers the old, bigger 3D units?

Which napoleonic titles have the bigger 3D units and which don't? Looking at the shop images you can see both types and I'm only interested in the games featuring the 'old' look.