New Panzer Campaign Graphics

[BigDuke66]

Ok forget graphics, what about the GUI?
I think it's no waste improving the accessibility of the PC series by adding the 3 GUI sizes that the CW series has. The rather high age of the usual Tiller customer will surely appreciate it, even if only the medium size would be added.

[Lowlander]

Don't take anything I say here personally, after all I've bought all the games in the series and am looking forward to the next imminent release.
Have bought a number of books on various battles over the year's, however they cannot match the experience of gaming the actual battles with this series, OK it's only a game, but a very immersive, addictive and enjoyable experience, wither in PBEM or against the AI which I set at 50% advantage.
I'm probably spending a lot more time here than normal due to Covid-19 lockdown rules.
Furthermore on reflection, I'm not known as a person who regularly exchanges pleasantries except maybe with my better half, who is usually always the victor.

[Simulacra53]

As they say, opinions are like assholes - everyone has one.

Firstly, as mentioned in the blog post but reiterated again, the Gold graphics will be included so that you can retain those if required. No one is forcing anyone to change from what was done in those releases. And for Peter yes, the 'no hex' versions will be left - as mentioned in the blog post.

Secondly, I am not planning to change the German colours.

I will leave it to clever modders to correct the error of my ways re German colouring.

Thirdly, as I have reiterated more than once in this thread, these were draft graphics. Many of your suggestions to date have now been incorporated. For e

A little point on Jison. Jison has been a fantastic partner for the whole community...

I am still adjusting graphics and will not show them for a little while, as I'd like them closer to a final (draft) version before you all unleash on me again...

David

Appreciate the honesty, it is also a fact!

At the risk of just being another err... opinion, I’d like to confess that I did find your design choices refreshingly original.

That’s the short version.
Disclaimer: continue reading at your own discretion.

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True I am a self confessed fan of Jison’s art work, but your latest work seems to be bridging that gap, at least for me and I appreciate the background information.

Apart from the German blue unit coloring there is nothing wrong or counter (pun intended) intuitive, but that’s a carry over.

Indeed changing the unit cards is relatively easy, it is the upscaled art which will be the challenge for the modding community.

OTOH if I am not mistaken - sorry if that’s been covered, did not read all the posts - this does seems to present an opportunity to unify Panzer Battles and Panzer Campaigns artwork, for both developers and the mod makers alike.

Although the scales differ, on the stylized level of a map it does not need to be much different, if at all.



Bit of a ramble, but the atmosphere seemed negative, which is a bit of a shame since this PzC 2x zoom - personally my no.1 wish for the series - was very much a welcome surprise and IMO a really great improvement, and especially your commitment to include this feature so soon after finalizing the Gold update - including the surprise MC series - is a monument to your dedication*

It is not that you are giving away PzC games, but to keep on improving the series and more importantly offer the upgrades for free like you have been doing is really rare these days - not a few companies would have chosen the dlc, v2.0 and even v3.0 route instead.

Those of us that offer critique should at least take that into consideration.

OTOH - to be honest - I only started looking seriously at JTS games after your work on Panzer Battles and Jison’s mods drew me towards PzC. Long story short! Updated art does matter to draw in new people and so do mods.


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Now to spoil that positive note...

*wish some of this pixie dust would be spread over the SB series, but that’s icing.

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Don’t say I did not warn you - your own discretion.

[CountryBoy]

Hi Strela, don't be put off by a small but vocal minority - such is the way with internet forums. 3 comments of a particular bent can make it seem their views are unanimous, but that's seldom the case. Your work and efforts are appreciated.

[Xaver]

I think more than negative feedback is oposite.

The Black VS grey is not only a question of taste is made easier diference between Luftwaffe and Heer because for me is better use total different colours over different scales of same colour (even i see a better middle solution the one used in NKVD or soviet naval units), better see things at first look BUT as you said since Gold versions units portraits include NATO counter and this is something that made the unit box looks less empty BUT made you need mod ALL unit portraits creating a small NATO version in the colour you want use as counter for the nation... i see this change as a trap because affect a lot mod the counter colour.

You comented sometimes about Jison desire about he doesnt like see his art in a comercial game and is perfect but one thing is port art and other take ideas and adapt them to your art, for example show defensive works allways was a problem in the serie because units cover them BUT is possible show them in a way like Jison implement... you can use letters and colours something enough big for easy identification.

Since the time of "psychedelic Cossacks" to "Golden Age" serie improves A LOT and is like play 2 or even 3 different games, nobody is saying you are doing a bad job we only give an opinion.

Returning to a more common terrain... waiting the 2nd part of the blog post, interested in know more about Scheltd44 and maybe future and exciting new projects.

[Green]

David, that you are not happy with some of the reaction to the first draft of your proposed changes is clear for all to see. I can fully understand your annoyance and you have my sympathy.

But at the risk of adding to your anger, I think there is something that is even more important. That is that the forum should allow for the free flow of ideas without people being concerned that their comments will result in them being insulted in any way (even sarcastically, by insinuation or as a 'joke') by someone in your position. Also I think the comment above by 'CountryBoy', misses an important point. The vocal minority bothers to provide feedback while the silent majority does not. We cannot know what people think if they are silent. Surely more should be encouraged to have their say if we are to improve these games. From personal experience, as someone that tends to invariably hold minority views, after a while it is tiring to go against the grain. Sometimes it is easier not to bother. Luckily not everyone follows this approach.

Btw, as an old ASL player, I think the blue used for the Germans is great. Does that help?

John

[pokeytrev]

David,
I may be one of the silent majority folks that mostly reads without posting a whole lot, but I think what you have put together is fantastic. I was surprised by some of the comments from others that honestly seems a bit excessive and rude, even to an observer. It just looks like there are a lot of passionate folks here that share their opinions a little loudly at times, but they wouldn't say anything if they didn't love the games.

Bottom line is not everyone will be pleased with everything, but just know that I--and many others--really appreciate your updates and rush to read them in excitement when they are posted. I think you are doing an excellent job, and I truly do love your work on the series.

[Strela]

David, that you are not happy with some of the reaction to the first draft of your proposed changes is clear for all to see. I can fully understand your annoyance and you have my sympathy.

But at the risk of adding to your anger, I think there is something that is even more important. That is that the forum should allow for the free flow of ideas without people being concerned that their comments will result in them being insulted in any way (even sarcastically, by insinuation or as a 'joke') by someone in your position. Also I think the comment above by 'CountryBoy', misses an important point. The vocal minority bothers to provide feedback while the silent majority does not. We cannot know what people think if they are silent. Surely more should be encouraged to have their say if we are to improve these games. From personal experience, as someone that tends to invariably hold minority views, after a while it is tiring to go against the grain. Sometimes it is easier not to bother. Luckily not everyone follows this approach.

Btw, as an old ASL player, I think the blue used for the Germans is great. Does that help?

John

All,

I'm not angry (maybe a little annoyed!), but definitely not angry. 

I'm replying on the back of John's note to highlight my agreement that the free flow of ideas is key. We want to hear them. The last thing I intended with my follow-up post was to shut down the conversation, but rather highlight that some of the more extreme thoughts were off the mark. Things such as 'old' Nato counters with thicker lines will still be there in the legacy graphics and its just as easy for a player to mix and match. Want the grey primary roads and railways from the gold release, copy the applicable file across etc.

The primary reason I posted the blog post was to highlight what is a big deal - the inclusion of another level of graphics. This finally gives a decent level of fidelity to what can be done. As I mentioned in the blog post, we are going from 900 pixels to 3,600 per hex. Same with the counters - we now have 2,400 pixels up from 600. That's a lot more real estate and allows us to do a lot more. This inclusion was desperately needed at a time when higher resolution, larger monitors were highlighting the flaws of what was 'prior generation' graphics. The other thing is that I am not a graphic designer. I'm an accountant/general manager by trade and everything you see has been learned because I got frustrated first with the unit graphics and then the terrain. All I have done is self taught and I spend a lot of time trying to understand how others make their art work. That's why there has been a constant evolution of my work over time. That said its now getting pretty much at the point that we will stop that process as its clear that we're confusing people.

I also want to comment on the 'unification' of the Panzer Battles and Panzer Campaigns graphics. What we're trying to do is not have them identical - at least for terrain. Unit cards are definitely interchangeable (shoot me if I have to do two different sets!), but the aim was always to have Panzer Battles look more 'natural' due to its scale and have Panzer Campaigns more map like. We made this call when we went across to the Gold Updates as at some point JTS had migrated a very early version of Panzer Battles terrain across to Panzer Campaigns and I think that was a wrong direction. My expectation is that you will see a different set of terrain graphics for each from this point. The Gold versions were the last to have some similar properties. The good news for modders is that most files will now be interchangeable between both systems so there is nothing stopping them moving between the two series. I'm planning to show you some new winter graphics for Panzer Battles that I'm really happy with in the next blog post or so as the next title(s) will be in cold weather and we hadn't to date done much with snow/frozen.

The other discussed point with the cross over of the two systems was Peter mentioned his concern with the 'Panzer Battles like' buildings coming across. The only thing that changed was that we moved these from 'flat' to raised. This is probably one of the points that I will show you an image as it illustrates why I think this works, but I can understand why people may disagree 

Here is a city in the Gold graphics and the new. I know which I think looks better.


I may ultimately add some streets etc to the town and city hexes, but I still believe these look map like. Again, the original Gold graphics will be available for those that disagree.

Finally, I'm also playing with the 'star burst' in each hex. The hexes look very flat without it, but I will probably pull back the impact by 50% which seems to work. I may show that soon.

As is evident, everyone has their ideal look. I won't satisfy everyone. I will try and come up with a solid base that will be usable for the foreseeable future. I hope the modders among you will have a field day as there really is a lot more to work with.

Please feel free to continue to post, but understand there are some limits to what can and cannot be done when working with the system we have of hex based graphics with six variants randomly chosen.

David

[phoenix]

Ok. I agree, David. It's nice in that shot above, very nice - the new city graphics, I mean. It's better. Yes. I was wrong. You're right. The bridges are better too, I note. And the forest hexes. And the rail lines! Thanks for posting it.

And a huge thanks, from me, for including old graphics and non- 'jison' hexes in the pack.

I'm really looking forward to Scheldt 44, by the way. One of my favourite scenarios in Command Ops was a user made scenario called Woensdrecht which dealt with this. I was actually - I confess - quite disappointed when you posted your update last week because I thought the surprise was going to be the release of Scheldt 44. So I hope that's soon!

You're doing a superb job, David. I hope we've all said that enough.

There's a separate thread I started, by the way, over in the Napoleonic forum so folks there would know something was planned for those titles and could reveal their arseholes, myself included. I realise there was already notification over in the NWC too. Hope you check those forums every now and then. Great you're interested in what people think. Sorry if anything I said was said harshly or insensitively. I'm a big fan, after all - it's just, as you know, I have a couple of pet hates....

[ComradeP]

A bit off-topic

I might be seeing things, but I've been trying for 3 hours to see if Kiev "fits" that screenshot. If it's a completely different city, that time was wasted.

The rail lines don't match and the lack of town/industrial hexes on what I assume is the left bank of Dnepr is also odd. The infrastructure on the left bank doesn't match the Kiev situation either.

The Yevheniya Bosh bridge was not rebuilt after the Soviets blew it up in 1941. That's at the top of this 1943 aerial recon photo.

The wooden Navodnitsky bridge was torched, the Germans built another bridge next to it, the Von Reichenau Brücke. The modern Patona bridge is more or less where that bridge was. The Soviets were also preparing to create a modern bridge in its place pre-invasion, but construction had only recently started.

The bridge at the bottom is one of the two rail bridges.