France '40 - 8,8 Hard Attack Value

[BigDuke66]

Hi,
was curious about the German AT capabilities and checked out various units and there equipment. I could more or less follow all values I found but the German 8,8 is so out of the norm that I'm basically stunned.
I know that it had a kick-ass AT capability but with a hard attack value of 39 it is on par with German Siege Artillery like the 42cm Gamma Mörser. Again I know that 88's were used to knock out bunkers but I still wonder how this value was found as it seems so out of the norm.

[Volcano Man]

I suppose I can answer.

Hard attack 39 is what John Tiller himself came up with for the 8.8mm FLAK, and he said he didn't want to go any higher than that (because I asked before calculating all the values in the now-in-use unit database). This then is the linchpin for which all other hard attack values for direct fire weapons were derived, so that value cannot/should not be changed. Everything is scaled off it, and changing it would make no sense since it is actually the center of all things.

As for the 42cm Gamma Morser, indirect fire weapon values are determined in a different way and whether or not it is the same as the 88mm FLAK gun is just a coincidence. Its hard attack value is used for bunkers and pillboxes. However these two things are apples and oranges. The 88mm FLAK gun can fire three times, while the artillery works differently, and requires a spotter, and so forth. Who is to say whether or not an artillery barrage by 420mm guns would or would not be comparable in anti-tank effectiveness than tanks being shot at by 88mm FLAK guns. I would imagine it would be comparable, though, if you can hit the target, and given the tanks of the period (and the fact that roof armor is usually the weakest part of a vehicle). Heck, you can easily kill or disable a modern tank with a 155mm HE artillery round if you can get the rounds on target.

Hopefully that answers the question...

[BigDuke66]

To be honest that confuses me even more.
As I said I looked through he values and one can follow why Panzers, Panzerjäger, AT guns etc. have certain values considering the often mixed Panzer formations or the usual differences of penetration performance depending on the sources one uses.
But the 88 with a 10 fold hard attack value compared to a real life maybe 3 times as good armor penetration compared to PIV makes me wonder how the values of the others were derived from the 88. And that counts for Pruchas & the Alt values.

[Jeff Conner]

Gentlemen

You have to remember that the hard attack value takes into consideration both the armor penetration and the accuracy of the weapon.  So, when comparing it to the 75mm L24 gun of a PzIV, you have better accuracy due to the flatter trajectory and higher velocity of the 88mm round, in addition to the significantly better penetration.  This higher value becomes important when firing at ranges beyond one hex where there is a range modifier.  And probably even more important than this is you have to remember that there is an effectiveness modifier that compares the defensive value of the target to the hard attack value.  If the hard attack value is greater than the defense, the modifier is not linear.  So a hard attack value of 39 is not three times as lethal in the game than a unit with a hard attack value of 13.  Unless, of course the defense value is greater than 39, in which case it is three times as effective.  Clear as mud?  John Tiller is a mathematician by education and so things that we might struggle with are second nature to him.  

After reading through this before posting it, it seems like an example might help.  I am going to use arbitrary values to make the math a bit easier.  If we have a weapon with a hard attack value of 40 shooting at a target with a defense value of 4, then the armor effectiveness modifier is 1/squareroot of 10, which is about .31 and the modified attack value is about 12.5.  If a different unit with a hard attack value of 4 were to shoot at the same defender, the armor effectiveness modifier would be 1 since that hard attack value is equal to the defense value and the modified attack value is still 4.  Thus, all other things being equal, the unit with the higher attack value will cause slightly more than 3 times the losses, even though the hard attack value is ten times higher.  Clear as mud now?

[BigDuke66]

Understood, more or less.  

As usual, bringing this knowledge to real life is hard.
I tried it in the Arras scenario, moved the B/7th RTR to 8,16 besides the 88 battery at 8,17.
The Fire value I get in the report is 249.
But I don't get to that using the formula from the manual. It is afaik 1/squareroot of 2,43 what is about 0.64.
The Fire value of the 88 would then be 16(guns) x 39(hard attack value) = 624 x 0,64 = 400
400 is pretty far away from the shown 249...

[Green]

Understood, more or less.  

As usual, bringing this knowledge to real life is hard.
I tried it in the Arras scenario, moved the B/7th RTR to 8,16 besides the 88 battery at 8,17.
The Fire value I get in the report is 249.
But I don't get to that using the formula from the manual. It is afaik 1/squareroot of 2,43 what is about 0.64.
The Fire value of the 88 would then be 16(guns) x 39(hard attack value) = 624 x 0,64 = 400
400 is pretty far away from the shown 249...

The calculation is;

Combat Value = H x Number of Guns x 10 / D x (1/ Square Root ( H / D))

Where H = Hard Attack Value and D = Defense Value. The number of guns is multiplied by 10 as 1 gun = 10 men.

So plugging in the values gives;

CV = 39 x 16 x 10 / 16 x ( 1/ Square Root (39 / 16 )) = 249.8

This is value displayed on the Combat Report (rounded down to 249).

There is a 20% reduction applied to this since the unit is Quality D but the CV is shown prior to this adjustment.

[BigDuke66]

Thanks but the problem is that the manual says:
"The attack value is multiplied by the strength in vehicles or guns of the firing unit,..."
So the attack value should be 39 * 16 and not again multiplied by 10.

[Green]

Thanks but the problem is that the manual says:
"The attack value is multiplied by the strength in vehicles or guns of the firing unit,..."
So the attack value should be 39 * 16 and not again multiplied by 10.

Yes, I understand the problem.

The value displayed in the Combat Report is correct and that is what the game uses. It is not a bug and I can replicate these values every time. It is the manual that is incorrect. I asked for this to be fixed but was told that this issue was too trivial. Mind you, that was twenty years ago so perhaps it is time to ask again.

Actually, I did mention this in another thread not that long ago but it is not something that is of interest to most people as they use the On Map Results rather than the Combat Report. And in fairness it is the concept of 10 men = 1 vehicle/gun which is the key idea the manual is trying to convey.   

But if you doubt that I am correct, just try some different calculations and you will soon see that if you follow the manual your Combat Values will be out by a factor of 10 and so will the casualties.

Hope this helps.

[Strela]

Thanks but the problem is that the manual says:
"The attack value is multiplied by the strength in vehicles or guns of the firing unit,..."
So the attack value should be 39 * 16 and not again multiplied by 10.

Yes, I understand the problem.

The value displayed in the Combat Report is correct and that is what the game uses. It is not a bug and I can replicate these values every time. It is the manual that is incorrect. I asked for this to be fixed but was told that this issue was too trivial. Mind you, that was twenty years ago so perhaps it is time to ask again.

Actually, I did mention this in another thread not that long ago but it is not something that is of interest to most people as they use the On Map Results rather than the Combat Report. And in fairness it is the concept of 10 men = 1 vehicle/gun which is the key idea the manual is trying to convey.   

But if you doubt that I am correct, just try some different calculations and you will soon see that if you follow the manual your Combat Values will be out by a factor of 10 and so will the casualties.

Hope this helps.

If you can give me some examples, I will look at including them in the manual...

Better still, adjusted explanatory text.

David

[Green]

No problem, David. Here is my suggested wording;

"[5.2] Fire Values and Modifiers

Understanding Basic Attack Strength

Target class - Depending on whether the target unit is a Hard Target or not, the Hard or Soft Attack value of the firing unit is used. Right Click on the Unit Picture in the Hex Info Area to see the Hard and Soft Fire factors. The value after the / is the maximum range. Some units may not be able to engage Hard targets such as tanks or Pillboxes at a range of even 1 hex.

The attack value is multiplied by the strength in men of the firing unit, (if the unit’s strength consists of vehicles or guns its strength is multiplied by 10, equalizing 1 Vehicle or Gun = 10 men)."

No big deal, but it has always bugged me.

John