Questions about Headquarters

Mit Sigel · 09-16-2020, 04:56 AM,

So I am getting close to editing a copy of the Olympic.oob for Japan 45. And I have questions about headquarters.

I see no HQ's for battalion-size units. Is there a known reason for that? Like: The code doesn't allow it? Is it considered gamey? Does it create too many ant units? The stacks get too high and fall over?

I see no HQ's for corps artillery units or field artillery groups.

I see no regimental combat/landing team organizations with attachments from supporting units. From reading the rules it seems like there would be some advantage to doing it that way. I guess my question here is: Would there be any harm in organizing teams?

Aaron · 09-16-2020, 05:04 AM,

You can have an HQ for anything , why there is not would have to be answered by the design team.

As far as HQ for Artillery units if you had an HQ for them then they could only spot for themselves. Wouldn't work.
By not having an HQ the organization that they are in can spot for them. Next HQ up the chain is considered there HQ and any unit in that organization can spot for them.

Mit Sigel · 09-16-2020, 09:10 AM,

(09-16-2020, 05:04 AM)Aaron Wrote: You can have an HQ for anything , why there is not would have to be answered by the design team.

As far as HQ for Artillery units if you had an HQ for them then they could only spot for themselves. Wouldn't work.
By not having an HQ the organization that they are in can spot for them. Next HQ up the chain is considered there HQ and any unit in that organization can spot for them.

Let me see if I understand you correctly. I confuse myself at situations like this.

If there were an HQ IX Corps artillery nested under IX Corps HQ the artillery HQ would be the only unit that could spot for the artillery nested under it?

And if there were subsequent field artillery group HQ's arriving under Sixth Army, only the group HQ could spot for the attached artillery under it?

Aaron · (This post was last modified: 09-16-2020, 09:34 AM by Aaron.)

G 2110 2 PanzerBrig 34
Begin
C. 54 HQ TRK 100 6 0 1 0 0 12 0 7 1 0 28 0 16 4 PanzerBrig 34 HQ, 34.PzBrig
B 1881 1 PanzerBtl 341
Begin
C. 1883 ARM TRK 13 5 39 2 0 18 1 0 2 0 0 39 21 18 1024 2.Kp/Panzer 341, Leopard 2A1
C. 1884 ARM TRK 13 5 39 2 0 18 1 0 2 0 0 39 21 18 1024 3.Kp/Panzer 341, Leopard 2A1
KG. 1885 INF TRK 145 5 29 1 0 27 1 0 8 1 0 28 25 18 1024 4.Kp/Panzer 341, Infantry (Marder)
End
B 2077 3 PzGrenBtl 342
Begin
C. 2078 INF TRK 145 5 29 1 0 27 1 0 8 1 0 28 25 18 1024 2.Kp/PzGren 342, Infantry (Marder)
C. 2079 INF TRK 145 5 29 1 0 27 1 0 8 1 0 28 25 18 1024 3.Kp/PzGren 342, Infantry (Marder)
C. 2080 INF TRK 145 5 29 1 0 27 1 0 8 1 0 28 25 18 1024 4.Kp/PzGren 342, Infantry (Marder)
End
B 1886 1 PanzerBtl 343
Begin
C. 1888 ARM TRK 13 5 39 2 0 18 1 0 2 0 0 39 21 18 1024 2.Kp/Panzer 343, Leopard 2A1
C. 1889 ARM TRK 13 5 39 2 0 18 1 0 2 0 0 39 21 18 1024 3.Kp/Panzer 343, Leopard 2A1
C. 1890 ARM TRK 13 5 39 2 0 18 1 0 2 0 0 39 21 18 1024 4.Kp/Panzer 343, Leopard 2A1
End
B 1891 1 PanzerBtl 344
Begin
C. 1893 ARM TRK 13 5 39 2 0 18 1 0 2 0 0 39 21 18 1024 2.Kp/Panzer 344, Leopard 2A1
C. 1894 ARM TRK 13 5 39 2 0 18 1 0 2 0 0 39 21 18 1024 3.Kp/Panzer 344, Leopard 2A1
C. 1895 ARM TRK 13 5 39 2 0 18 1 0 2 0 0 39 21 18 1024 4.Kp/Panzer 344, Leopard 2A1
End
KG. 707111 REC PM 26 6 10 1 0 12 1 0 7 1 0 15 9 27 1028 BrigSpähZg, Luchs-Iltis
KG. 90831 ENG PM 160 5 9 1 0 12 1 0 3 0 0 18 12 22 6 PzPiKp 340, Pionier (Fuchs)
B. 78 ART TRK 18 5 15 11 0 27 11 0 4 0 0 15 9 15 1 PzArtBtl 345, 155mm M109A3G
KG. 2157 GM TRK 12 5 42 3 0 0 1 0 2 0 0 16 8 17 0 PzJgK 340, Jaguar 1 (HOT)
End

The M109 HQ is the PanzerBrig 34 HQ, anything in the Bde can spot for it.

West-German D 2108 2 12.Panzer Div
Begin
C. 41 HQ TRK 100 6 0 1 0 0 20 0 7 1 0 28 0 16 4 12.Panzer Div HQ, 12PzDiv HQ
B 33418 0 SichBtl 128
Begin
C. 99698 INF MOT 142 5 9 1 0 12 1 0 5 1 0 20 12 18 0 2.Kp/SichBtl 128, Sicherungs Co
C. 99699 INF MOT 142 5 9 1 0 12 1 0 5 1 0 20 12 18 0 3.Kp/SichBtl 128, Sicherungs Co
C. 99700 INF MOT 142 5 9 1 0 12 1 0 5 1 0 20 12 18 0 4.Kp/SichBtl 128, Sicherungs Co
End
B 5976 2 PzaufklärungsBtl 12
Begin
KG. 5977 REC TRK 21 6 27 2 0 21 1 0 7 1 0 22 12 23 1024 2.Kp/PzAufkl 12, Leopard 1A5-Luchs
KG. 5978 REC TRK 21 6 27 2 0 21 1 0 7 1 0 22 12 23 1024 3.Kp/PzAufkl 12, Leopard 1A5-Luchs
KG. 5979 REC TRK 21 6 27 2 0 21 1 0 7 1 0 22 12 23 1024 4.Kp/PzAufkl 12, Leopard 1A5-Luchs
End
R 1733 2 FlugabwehrRgt 12
Begin
C. 1734 AA TRK 12 5 12 1 0 21 1 0 36 2 0 16 18 16 0 2&3./FlaRgt 12, Gepard
C. 1735 AA TRK 12 5 12 1 0 21 1 0 36 2 0 16 18 16 0 4&5./FlaRgt 12, Gepard
C. 1736 AA TRK 12 5 12 1 0 21 1 0 36 2 0 16 18 16 0 6&7./FlaRgt 12, Gepard
End
B 6054 4 PionierBtl 12
Begin
C. 6055 ENG MOT 137 5 6 1 0 9 1 0 2 0 0 20 9 18 2 2.Kp/Pionier 12, Pionier Co
C. 6056 ENG MOT 137 5 6 1 0 9 1 0 2 0 0 20 9 18 2 3.Kp/Pionier 12, Pionier Co
C. 6057 ENG MOT 137 5 6 1 0 9 1 0 2 0 0 20 9 18 2 4.Kp/Pionier 12, Pionier Co
KG. 1716 ENG MOT 192 5 3 1 0 6 1 0 2 0 0 20 6 18 16 5.Kp/Pionier 12, Ribbon-Boats
End
R 2119 2 ArtillerieRgt 12
Begin
B. 123 ART MOT 18 5 15 15 0 27 15 0 4 0 0 18 6 18 1 FArtBtl 121, 155mm FH70
B. 2153 HART TRK 18 5 18 12 0 36 12 0 4 0 0 10 6 15 129 FArtBtl 121, 203mm M110A2
B. 124 ROC MOT 16 5 18 11 3 72 11 3 4 0 0 18 0 18 1 RakArtBtl 122, 110mm LARS
End
B 99152 4 JägerBtl 126
Begin
C. 1737 INF MOT 161 4 16 1 0 15 1 0 5 1 0 20 18 18 0 2.Kp/Jäger 126, JG (Inf)
C. 1738 INF MOT 161 4 16 1 0 15 1 0 5 1 0 20 18 18 0 3.Kp/Jäger 126, JG (Inf)
C. 1739 INF MOT 161 4 16 1 0 15 1 0 5 1 0 20 18 18 0 4.Kp/Jäger 126, JG (Inf)
End
B 2272 4 JägerBtl 127
Begin
C. 2273 INF MOT 161 4 16 1 0 15 1 0 5 1 0 20 18 18 0 2.Kp/Jäger 127, JG (Inf)
C. 2274 INF MOT 161 4 16 1 0 15 1 0 5 1 0 20 18 18 0 3.Kp/Jäger 127, JG (Inf)
C. 2275 INF MOT 161 4 16 1 0 15 1 0 5 1 0 20 18 18 0 4.Kp/Jäger 127, JG (Inf)
End
G 2110 2 PanzerBrig 34
Begin
C. 54 HQ TRK 100 6 0 1 0 0 12 0 7 1 0 28 0 16 4 PanzerBrig 34 HQ, 34.PzBrig
B 1881 1 PanzerBtl 341
Begin
C. 1883 ARM TRK 13 5 39 2 0 18 1 0 2 0 0 39 21 18 1024 2.Kp/Panzer 341, Leopard 2A1
C. 1884 ARM TRK 13 5 39 2 0 18 1 0 2 0 0 39 21 18 1024 3.Kp/Panzer 341, Leopard 2A1
KG. 1885 INF TRK 145 5 29 1 0 27 1 0 8 1 0 28 25 18 1024 4.Kp/Panzer 341, Infantry (Marder)
End
B 2077 3 PzGrenBtl 342
Begin
C. 2078 INF TRK 145 5 29 1 0 27 1 0 8 1 0 28 25 18 1024 2.Kp/PzGren 342, Infantry (Marder)
C. 2079 INF TRK 145 5 29 1 0 27 1 0 8 1 0 28 25 18 1024 3.Kp/PzGren 342, Infantry (Marder)
C. 2080 INF TRK 145 5 29 1 0 27 1 0 8 1 0 28 25 18 1024 4.Kp/PzGren 342, Infantry (Marder)
End
B 1886 1 PanzerBtl 343
Begin
C. 1888 ARM TRK 13 5 39 2 0 18 1 0 2 0 0 39 21 18 1024 2.Kp/Panzer 343, Leopard 2A1
C. 1889 ARM TRK 13 5 39 2 0 18 1 0 2 0 0 39 21 18 1024 3.Kp/Panzer 343, Leopard 2A1
C. 1890 ARM TRK 13 5 39 2 0 18 1 0 2 0 0 39 21 18 1024 4.Kp/Panzer 343, Leopard 2A1
End
B 1891 1 PanzerBtl 344
Begin
C. 1893 ARM TRK 13 5 39 2 0 18 1 0 2 0 0 39 21 18 1024 2.Kp/Panzer 344, Leopard 2A1
C. 1894 ARM TRK 13 5 39 2 0 18 1 0 2 0 0 39 21 18 1024 3.Kp/Panzer 344, Leopard 2A1
C. 1895 ARM TRK 13 5 39 2 0 18 1 0 2 0 0 39 21 18 1024 4.Kp/Panzer 344, Leopard 2A1
End
KG. 707111 REC PM 26 6 10 1 0 12 1 0 7 1 0 15 9 27 1028 BrigSpähZg, Luchs-Iltis
KG. 90831 ENG PM 160 5 9 1 0 12 1 0 3 0 0 18 12 22 6 PzPiKp 340, Pionier (Fuchs)
B. 78 ART TRK 18 5 15 11 0 27 11 0 4 0 0 15 9 15 1 PzArtBtl 345, 155mm M109A3G
KG. 2157 GM TRK 12 5 42 3 0 0 1 0 2 0 0 16 8 17 0 PzJgK 340, Jaguar 1 (HOT)
End
G 2111 2 PzGrenBrig 35
Begin
C. 43 HQ TRK 100 6 0 1 0 0 12 0 7 1 0 28 0 16 4 PzGrenBrig 35 HQ, 35.PzGrenBrig
B 2081 3 PzGrenBtl 351
Begin
C. 2082 INF TRK 145 5 29 1 0 27 1 0 8 1 0 28 25 18 1024 2.Kp/PzGren 351, Infantry (Marder)
C. 2083 INF TRK 145 5 29 1 0 27 1 0 8 1 0 28 25 18 1024 3.Kp/PzGren 351, Infantry (Marder)
KG. 2092 ARM TRK 13 5 33 2 0 21 1 0 2 0 0 27 15 17 1024 4.Kp/PzGren 351, Leopard 1A5
End
B 2085 3 PzGrenBtl 352
Begin
C. 2086 INF TRK 145 5 29 1 0 27 1 0 8 1 0 28 25 18 1024 2.Kp/PzGren 352, Infantry (Marder)
C. 2087 INF TRK 145 5 29 1 0 27 1 0 8 1 0 28 25 18 1024 3.Kp/PzGren 352, Infantry (Marder)
KG. 2088 INF TRK 145 4 24 1 0 15 1 0 7 1 0 18 21 16 4 4.Kp/PzGren 352, Infantry (M113)
End
B 2089 3 PzGrenBtl 353
Begin
C. 2090 INF TRK 145 5 29 1 0 27 1 0 8 1 0 28 25 18 1024 2.Kp/PzGren 353, Infantry (Marder)
C. 2091 INF TRK 145 5 29 1 0 27 1 0 8 1 0 28 25 18 1024 3.Kp/PzGren 353, Infantry (Marder)
KG. 2084 INF TRK 145 4 24 1 0 15 1 0 7 1 0 18 21 16 4 4.Kp/PzGren 353, Infantry (M113)
End
B 1896 1 PanzerBtl 354
Begin
C. 1898 ARM TRK 13 5 33 2 0 21 1 0 2 0 0 27 15 17 1024 2.Kp/Panzer 354, Leopard 1A5
C. 1899 ARM TRK 13 5 33 2 0 21 1 0 2 0 0 27 15 17 1024 3.Kp/Panzer 354, Leopard 1A5
C. 1900 ARM TRK 13 5 33 2 0 21 1 0 2 0 0 27 15 17 1024 4.Kp/Panzer 354, Leopard 1A5
End
KG. 707112 REC PM 26 6 10 1 0 12 1 0 7 1 0 15 9 27 1028 BrigSpähZg, Luchs-Iltis
KG. 90832 ENG PM 160 5 9 1 0 12 1 0 3 0 0 18 12 22 6 PzPiKp 350, Pionier (Fuchs)
B. 79 ART TRK 18 5 15 11 0 27 11 0 4 0 0 15 9 15 1 PzArtBtl 355, 155mm M109A3G
KG. 6153 GM TRK 12 5 48 3 0 0 1 0 2 0 0 16 8 17 1024 PzJgKp 350, Jaguar 2 (TOW2)
End
G 2118 2 PanzerBrig 36
Begin
C. 65 HQ TRK 100 6 0 1 0 0 12 0 7 1 0 28 0 16 4 PanzerBrig 36 HQ, 36.PzBrig
B 1901 1 PanzerBtl 361
Begin
C. 1903 ARM TRK 13 5 42 2 0 18 1 0 2 0 0 42 21 18 1024 2.Kp/Panzer 361, Leopard 2A4
C. 1904 ARM TRK 13 5 42 2 0 18 1 0 2 0 0 42 21 18 1024 3.Kp/Panzer 361, Leopard 2A4
KG. 1905 INF TRK 145 5 29 1 0 27 1 0 8 1 0 28 25 18 1024 4.Kp/Panzer 361, Infantry (Marder)
End
B 2093 3 PzGrenBtl 362
Begin
C. 2094 INF TRK 145 5 29 1 0 27 1 0 8 1 0 28 25 18 1024 2.Kp/PzGren 362, Infantry (Marder)
C. 2095 INF TRK 145 5 29 1 0 27 1 0 8 1 0 28 25 18 1024 3.Kp/PzGren 362, Infantry (Marder)
C. 2096 INF TRK 145 5 29 1 0 27 1 0 8 1 0 28 25 18 1024 4.Kp/PzGren 362, Infantry (Marder)
End
B 1911 1 PanzerBtl 363
Begin
C. 1913 ARM TRK 13 5 42 2 0 18 1 0 2 0 0 42 21 18 1024 2.Kp/Panzer 363, Leopard 2A4
C. 1914 ARM TRK 13 5 42 2 0 18 1 0 2 0 0 42 21 18 1024 3.Kp/Panzer 363, Leopard 2A4
C. 1915 ARM TRK 13 5 42 2 0 18 1 0 2 0 0 42 21 18 1024 4.Kp/Panzer 363, Leopard 2A4
End
B 1916 1 PanzerBtl 364
Begin
C. 1918 ARM TRK 13 5 42 2 0 18 1 0 2 0 0 42 21 18 1024 2.Kp/Panzer 364, Leopard 2A4
C. 1919 ARM TRK 13 5 42 2 0 18 1 0 2 0 0 42 21 18 1024 3.Kp/Panzer 364, Leopard 2A4
C. 1920 ARM TRK 13 5 42 2 0 18 1 0 2 0 0 42 21 18 1024 4.Kp/Panzer 364, Leopard 2A4
End
KG. 707113 REC PM 26 6 10 1 0 12 1 0 7 1 0 15 9 27 1028 BrigSpähZg, Luchs-Iltis
KG. 90833 ENG PM 160 5 9 1 0 12 1 0 3 0 0 18 12 22 6 PzPiKp 360, Pionier (Fuchs)
B. 80 ART TRK 18 5 15 11 0 27 11 0 4 0 0 15 9 15 1 PzArtBtl 365, 155mm M109A3G
KG. 2167 GM TRK 12 5 42 3 0 0 1 0 2 0 0 16 8 17 0 PzJgKp 360, Jaguar 1 (HOT)
End
End

Here you see the seperate Bdes that have there M109s but only the bde can spot for each but the way the divisional
ArtillerieRgt 12 Bn is set up with no HQ the whole Division can spot for them because its HQ is the Div HQ. If you gave the ArtillerieRgt 12 an HQ then only the ArtillerieRgt 12 would be able to spot for itself.

Whatever HQ it is attached to is the organization that can spot for it.

Mit Sigel · 09-16-2020, 09:48 AM,

OK. Thank you for taking the time to elucidate that for me.

Aaron · 09-16-2020, 10:13 AM,

As far as HQs at Bn level in a more Strategic level game as in PzC i dont see a need. HQs serve a purpose and besides that purpose they dont provide much else except more units to move around, keeping unit density down is always a good thing. Adding HQs to Bns in bigger Scenarios you could be adding 100s of units to the map.

Now PzB on the other hand, a more Operational level game Bn HQs would work better.

Just my thought

Mit Sigel · 09-16-2020, 03:41 PM,

(09-16-2020, 10:13 AM)Aaron Wrote: As far as HQs at Bn level in a more Strategic level game as in PzC i dont see a need. HQs serve a purpose and besides that purpose they dont provide much else except more units to move around, keeping unit density down is always a good thing. Adding HQs to Bns in bigger Scenarios you could be adding 100s of units to the map.

Now PzB on the other hand, a more Operational level game Bn HQs would work better.

Just my thought

In the Pacific attached units might not see their parent HQ for weeks, or months, at a time. So I'm really only talking about the infantry regiment battalions, and maybe a few engineer combat battalions.

I haven't lawyered up on the manuals yet. But I get a general sense that HQ's provide some benefit to morale and supply. So not entirely inconsequential on the face of it. But they don't seem to confer a benefit to combined arms operations.

ComradeP · (This post was last modified: 09-16-2020, 09:40 PM by ComradeP.)

One nice addition for the Japan titles would be floating beach area/corps HQ's that withdraw when the real corps HQ's arrive at the beach.

The plethora of support units that form the first wave not having an on-map HQ can lead to lengthy delays in Disruption recovery. That might be intended, but it takes a long while for those HQ's to arrive at the beaches.

Other things worth noting: formations without HQ's generally can't be reassigned. That means you can never attach most corps assets to other corps.
Formations assigned directly to Army Level HQ's or above can't be reassigned. That's why there tend to be dummy "reserves" or the like HQ's in the OOB as the game only allows formations with an HQ at corps level to be attached to other formations during the game.

Aaron · 09-16-2020, 11:14 PM,

(09-16-2020, 03:41 PM)Mit Sigel Wrote:
(09-16-2020, 10:13 AM)Aaron Wrote: As far as HQs at Bn level in a more Strategic level game as in PzC i dont see a need. HQs serve a purpose and besides that purpose they dont provide much else except more units to move around, keeping unit density down is always a good thing. Adding HQs to Bns in bigger Scenarios you could be adding 100s of units to the map.

Now PzB on the other hand, a more Operational level game Bn HQs would work better.

Just my thought

I haven't lawyered up on the manuals yet. But I get a general sense that HQ's provide some benefit to morale and supply.

Yes but as in the examples posted above as in the 34th Bde they are getting that from the Bde HQ already so is there I real need to in that case to add 4 more HQs to the BNs to do the same thing.

Something to ponder, is it worth more clutter and longer turn times to add essentially something in that's already there.

Mit Sigel

(09-16-2020, 09:37 PM)ComradeP Wrote: One nice addition for the Japan titles would be floating beach area/corps HQ's that withdraw when the real corps HQ's arrive at the beach.

The plethora of support units that form the first wave not having an on-map HQ can lead to lengthy delays in Disruption recovery. That might be intended, but it takes a long while for those HQ's to arrive at the beaches.

Other things worth noting: formations without HQ's generally can't be reassigned. That means you can never attach most corps assets to other corps.
Formations assigned directly to Army Level HQ's or above can't be reassigned. That's why there tend to be dummy "reserves" or the like HQ's in the OOB as the game only allows formations with an HQ at corps level to be attached to other formations during the game.

Interesting point about the floating HQ's.

Interesting point about the attachment system as some units moved around frequently. I'm really gonna have to dig into the manual a little harder before I start in on a scenario.

So there would have to be an HQ at corps level for a tank battalion to be assigned to another division in the Corps, or to another corps altogether? Do those HQ's need to be deployed on the board?

In all the OOB's I have looked at battalions are attached at division level. Am I going to run into unforeseen (by me) problems attaching the companies to regiments? And platoons to battalions?

What I am shooting for is the freedom to reassign units according to need. For example, there just aren't enough chemical mortar battalions to go around. But you might also want to re-assign some units to follow-on regiments and divisions if they aren't too shot up.