Scheldt 44 comments

[phoenix]

I'm no expert, of course. I've been playing against myself, hot-seat, 3 scenarios. Overloon 1 (the 7th Armoured's debacle), Antwerp and the larger Autumn Gale (misspelled 'gail' in the title?). 

I realise I was warned about the low quality troops, on both sides, the weather, the terrain etc. But, I just compare to history. The Antwerp scenario, for example. In reality the Hussars liberated Antwerp on 4 Sept, the same day the Antwerp scenario begins. There is not a hope of this happening, I feel, in the game. Not a chance. There are a solid ring of bunkers around Antwerp and all the attackers are poor quality and disrupt pretty easily. Is this the way the scenario was designed and tested to be? That is, that an historical result is impossible? Like I said, I'm no expert. I would love to see the player who can play hot seat and liberate Antwerp day 1. I would learn a lot from that AAR. Or the balance is not historical? 

The same is true of Overloon. I expected 7th Armoured to fail, but they couldn't get near their historical level, mainly because they are all D quality or lower and the disruptions prevent all progress very quickly. Combined with enemy in improved positions. 

It's like playing the EF titles, but where everyone is as poor as the Russians and whereas those fights took days and days and there were floods of (poor quality) reinforcements, here there's not and time is limited. Like I said, I'm only comparing what progress is possible against the historical progress, and these are only first impressions after finishing only 2 short scenarios and getting half way through a longer one. And I put these thoughts out for discussion.

Right now I'm feeling the plethora of D quality or lower units has maybe gone a little too far for the game mechanics to make historical results possible? Or I really am a terrible player. Could be that...

[Mike Prucha]

Hi Phoenix,

Thanks for your feedback and thanks for picking up a copy of Scheldt '44!

Morale values were decided after extensive testing. If we loaded the OOB up with Quality A & B Allied troops, this game would not work. Quality D and C ratings force the Allied player to take a more cautious approach and rely on the firepower of the Royal Artillery.

It is very possible to achieve a historic result in the Antwerp scenario  (I have done it multiple times), but it will require a good game out of the Allied player (even against the AI), the German player to recreate Stolberg-Stolberg's order to withdraw north of the canal, and a little bit of luck. It is harder in PBEM and hotseat as your opponent will probably take more aggressive action than Graf zu Stolberg-Stolberg did historically. Also remember that not all of Antwerp was liberated on the 4th - there was still fighting in the city when the British tanks arrived that continued into the night and the northern suburbs and much of the port remained in German hands on the 5th.

In testing Overloon, I will say that we got a range of results, everything from the Americans getting absolutely stonewalled and making zero progress  to actually capturing the village on the last day of the scenario. The historic result is somewhere in the middle of all that. Also, for clarification, the only Quality D troops at Overloon are the Belgian Peel Detachment. The rest of the Allied forces in that scenario are Quality C.

-Mike P

[phoenix]

Thanks Mike. It's a beautiful title and game and I'm really enjoying it. Thanks for all the work put into it!

But how? How on earth did you even get ANY Allied troops into Antwerp on day 1 (resistance fighters aside)? I must really need that AAR explaining how it's done...Playing hotseat I have a wealth of dug-in blocking troops as Axis and plenty reinforcements coming in later to block the gaps. But that's even going to day 2. Historically the Allies had a bridghead going (albeit temporarily) into Merksem, from within Antwerp proper, by the end of day 1. I cannot see how I can do that as Allies.

[LordDeadwood]

I agree with Phoenix's comments, and I too would love to see an AAR of Antwerp with the Allies even getting into Antwerp on day one, let alone getting a bridgehead into Merksem... I didn't play hotseat, I played against the AI (using the AI scripted scenario, with the 1 pt. objectives) and although I made it into Antwerp by the end of the game, I was only able to capture two objectives, one of which was the 200 pt. hex that the Belgian resistance spawns in on the first turn. I know my playing skills are not the greatest and I'm sure I missed opportunities, but I definitely agree with Phoenix's assessment that a historical outcome seems very unlikely...

[Outlaw Josey Wales]

I'm no expert, of course. I've been playing against myself, hot-seat, 3 scenarios. Overloon 1 (the 7th Armoured's debacle), Antwerp and the larger Autumn Gale (misspelled 'gail' in the title?). 

I realise I was warned about the low quality troops, on both sides, the weather, the terrain etc. But, I just compare to history. The Antwerp scenario, for example. In reality the Hussars liberated Antwerp on 4 Sept, the same day the Antwerp scenario begins. There is not a hope of this happening, I feel, in the game. Not a chance. There are a solid ring of bunkers around Antwerp and all the attackers are poor quality and disrupt pretty easily. Is this the way the scenario was designed and tested to be? That is, that an historical result is impossible? Like I said, I'm no expert. I would love to see the player who can play hot seat and liberate Antwerp day 1. I would learn a lot from that AAR. Or the balance is not historical? 

The same is true of Overloon. I expected 7th Armoured to fail, but they couldn't get near their historical level, mainly because they are all D quality or lower and the disruptions prevent all progress very quickly. Combined with enemy in improved positions. 

It's like playing the EF titles, but where everyone is as poor as the Russians and whereas those fights took days and days and there were floods of (poor quality) reinforcements, here there's not and time is limited. Like I said, I'm only comparing what progress is possible against the historical progress, and these are only first impressions after finishing only 2 short scenarios and getting half way through a longer one. And I put these thoughts out for discussion.

Right now I'm feeling the plethora of D quality or lower units has maybe gone a little too far for the game mechanics to make historical results possible? Or I really am a terrible player. Could be that...

Playing hot-seat against yourself is like playing a board game solo.  You know what both sides are up to.

As far as the quality goes, it should be as real as they can get it.  No changing an A quality to a B or C for the sake of game play.  Everything should be kept as real as possible.  You can do the other for "what if" scenarios in addition to the others.  But, they have been clearly marked so some people don't take it as real.

[All_American]

Well, I was able to roll my tanks into Antwerp by turn 5. Here.

It is certainly a tough scenario and I haven't completed it yet, but Antwerp in 19 turns should be quite doable. Or are we talking about different scenarios?

[phoenix]

I'm no expert, of course. I've been playing against myself, hot-seat, 3 scenarios. Overloon 1 (the 7th Armoured's debacle), Antwerp and the larger Autumn Gale (misspelled 'gail' in the title?). 

I realise I was warned about the low quality troops, on both sides, the weather, the terrain etc. But, I just compare to history. The Antwerp scenario, for example. In reality the Hussars liberated Antwerp on 4 Sept, the same day the Antwerp scenario begins. There is not a hope of this happening, I feel, in the game. Not a chance. There are a solid ring of bunkers around Antwerp and all the attackers are poor quality and disrupt pretty easily. Is this the way the scenario was designed and tested to be? That is, that an historical result is impossible? Like I said, I'm no expert. I would love to see the player who can play hot seat and liberate Antwerp day 1. I would learn a lot from that AAR. Or the balance is not historical? 

The same is true of Overloon. I expected 7th Armoured to fail, but they couldn't get near their historical level, mainly because they are all D quality or lower and the disruptions prevent all progress very quickly. Combined with enemy in improved positions. 

It's like playing the EF titles, but where everyone is as poor as the Russians and whereas those fights took days and days and there were floods of (poor quality) reinforcements, here there's not and time is limited. Like I said, I'm only comparing what progress is possible against the historical progress, and these are only first impressions after finishing only 2 short scenarios and getting half way through a longer one. And I put these thoughts out for discussion.

Right now I'm feeling the plethora of D quality or lower units has maybe gone a little too far for the game mechanics to make historical results possible? Or I really am a terrible player. Could be that...

Playing hot-seat against yourself is like playing a board game solo.  You know what both sides are up to.

As far as the quality goes, it should be as real as they can get it.  No changing an A quality to a B or C for the sake of game play.  Everything should be kept as real as possible.  You can do the other for "what if" scenarios in addition to the others.  But, they have been clearly marked so some people don't take it as real.

The Antwerp scenario is meant to be historical. I've played it a few times now. I suppose I would say this in support of Mike's comments - if I were to play a withdrawing game as Axis then I would be able to get in to Antwerp as the Allies did on Day 1 - ie; if I withdrew Axis opposition. It may be that this was precisely what happened historically. I'm not sure. I'll have to look more closely at my Didden and Swarts volumes. But, it's very clear that if I do not withdraw my Axis forces from their bunkers then there is nothing that the attackers can do to get them out in time to get an historical advance. To get purchase on any of the bunkers I have to use Allied arty and I only get that past half way through day 1. Then I have to start the grinding grind-down process.....So, as was said above, by LordDeadwood, it's possible to get a foothold in Antwerp by scenario end, but not as happened historically, on day 1, unless the Axis voluntarily gives up its strongpoints. This may be working exactly as intended. In fact, I assume it is. Now I'll go read the books again...

[phoenix]

Well, I was able to roll my tanks into Antwerp by turn 5. Here.

It is certainly a tough scenario and I haven't completed it yet, but Antwerp in 19 turns should be quite doable. Or are we talking about different scenarios?

Thanks All_American. Slightly different scenario, yes. You played with the AI scripts controlling the Axis forces (the second Antwerp scenario, 'a', for against the AI play). I haven't played against the AI, just H2H (hot seat, against myself). I'm not sure what the Axis AI script does, but it may be different to what I did (which was keep all my Axis defenders in their strongpoints, cede no ground), and that may have made things easier. It may have made the Axis response more historical too.... 

I think it's all ok. Really enjoying it.

[All_American]

That makes sense. Axis AI withdraws troops northwards, leaving gaps for you to exploit.

I'm not sure if I can get the northwestern objective in time, but against scripted AI at least rest of the objectives seem doable.

[phoenix]

That makes sense. Axis AI withdraws troops northwards, leaving gaps for you to exploit.

I'm not sure if I can get the northwestern objective in time, but against scripted AI at least rest of the objectives seem doable.

Indeed. Great if the AI scripts yield an historical outcome, more or less, but the H2H version allows room for the Axis to achieve something, and makes it harder for the Allies.

UPDATE: I just played the AI version. It was great fun, and very well set up. I didn't manage to get tanks into Antwerp by turn 5, All_American, and would love to know how you did that. I did get tanks into the city by the start of day 2. The Axis script does, in fact, withdraw a little from the ring of bunkers, as Mike Prucha hinted, and if you can find the hole it might be possible to make faster progress, but I didn't find it in time. Is this what you did, All_American, or did you somehow manage to blast your way through in 5 turns? That is beyond me, how you managed ot get up there in 5 turns...