Assaulting tanks

Pepe Botijo · (This post was last modified: 03-24-2016, 04:33 AM by Pepe Botijo.)

Seems to me very strange tanks are able to assault on their own without infantry support. Furthermore in "Red Victory" tanks are almost bulldozers (vehicle infantry value 20) in comparison with other titles (double value). On another hand, assault guns have the same assault value than tanks, even though they were designed for assaults.

Any plans to change these unhistorical features?

Mowgli · (This post was last modified: 11-27-2020, 01:20 AM by Mowgli.)

I'm wondering about this as well.
Just played Red Victory/Cherkasskoye PBEM and the opponent just blitzed forward with his tanks.

There was nothing I could do against that as the tanks (infantry assault value 20, as pointed out by Pepe) simply assault-obliterated everything in their way and utterly destroyed my Molotov-units before they even have a chance to use their cocktails. The AT-rifles are useless against Tigers (even at close distance from the rear at immobilized tanks; penetration is below half the rear armor...). The AT guns are positioned in a way so that they can be easily avoided. The only chance is that the opponent assaults into covered terrain, in which case he has a 25% chance to get stuck (and even then the tank sits on the objective!).

It does not feel immersive at all. Tanks on their own should not be able to assault in this way and easily obliterate a squad of infantry in trenches without any risk to themselves whatsoever. I'd be okay if tanks could move "through" the position, causing some casualties, but not destroy everyone in their way in a single turn.

In this scenario, it was probably particularly bad, as the Tigers have an armor value of 80, so they have an assault power that equals about 66 (!!!!) infantry. It would help a lot if - for example - the armor value (and corresponding assault power) would also be affected by facing/aspect. Right now, it only works for fire combat.

So, in this scenario, as I see it, your only chance to neutralize the Tigers is
1) to make them get stuck (a. immobilization chance if they assault into covered terrain; b. small chance during movement through difficult terrain)
1a) if they're stuck, you might be able to attack them: either with assaults (their combat power is now much reduced - they're now only about 3-4 infantry equivalents) - but for this you first need to pass a difficult morale test; or with Molotov cocktails (ideally: from behind, with fresh units that are not negatively affected by any status).
2) to whittle down their effectiveness (by throwing suicide infantry in their way?) until they're below 50% and can no longer assault - good luck with that!

**Warhorse** · 11-27-2020, 01:19 AM,

My mod for AoTR coming out next Tuesday, is much more realistic!

**Warhorse** · 11-27-2020, 01:25 AM,

also depends on the tank, the weapons itcarries, vs the infantry unit in question, it's weapons, cover, morale, etc. Don't try to assault a Polish unit with a Panzer I!!

O.Schmidt · (This post was last modified: 11-27-2020, 03:45 AM by O.Schmidt.)

In Red Victory the range value is wrong for the Tiger 1! I raised it to 50 fields (not 35)! The same range as the Panzer 4!

O.Schmidt · 11-27-2020, 03:49 AM,

Hello Warhorse! I'm looking forward to your Aotr! Can not wait anymore! :)

**Warhorse** · 11-27-2020, 07:29 AM,

Tuesday!!

**Warhorse** · 11-27-2020, 07:33 AM,

(11-27-2020, 03:44 AM)O.Schmidt Wrote: In Red Victory the range value is wrong for the Tiger 1! I raised it to 50 fields (not 35)! The same range as the Panzer 4!

In my mod, the range is 53, lethality 132m penetration is 132, 153 for the APCR round, yes, the mod has a full range of loads!

Jeff Conner · 12-02-2020, 06:31 AM,

The relationship between armor and infantry in this game series was always one of it's pitfalls. Any armored vehicle with an armor rating higher than than hard vehicle value is almost impervious to assault. If the value is lower, the vehicles are pretty fragile. I'm not sure of the math behind the calculations of the defense value of tanks, but I have tested this more than once and I never had an infantry unit destroy a tank, regardless of whether it was attacking or defending. I seem to recall that in one of my games, I lost a Sherman in an assault on an infantry position, but that was a long time ago and my memory isn't what it used to be.

I also never understood why the armor value was part of the assault value. Armor doesn't kill you; bullets, fragments, blast and crushing do. Once the armor is thick enough to stop a rifle bullet, it shouldn't be important in an assault.

It might be possible to adjust the hard vehicle value to a point where tanks are more realistically portrayed, but it would require quite a bit of testing and even then, I am not sure it would provide the desired results.

Just my two cents worth.