cleaning rubble in Normandy 44

[Ricky B]

As it had to be tied to something, I would expect John Tiller decided that clearing the rubble from a hex would be twice as hard as putting IPs in? After discussing with his then team. But just guessing. 

He could have created a new parameter too, but obviously decided not to, probably to minimize the effort of adding the new feature without having to redo quite as many existing pieces of code such as the PDT editor and adding a PDT parsed value in the game engine. All for limited gain, if the original thought was it was more difficult than IPs. Similar to the reason, maybe, that it takes one success for IPs, and a second for TRENCHs.

Rick

[Plain Ian]

As it had to be tied to something, I would expect John Tiller decided that clearing the rubble from a hex would be twice as hard as putting IPs in? After discussing with his then team. But just guessing. 

He could have created a new parameter too, but obviously decided not to, probably to minimize the effort of adding the new feature without having to redo quite as many existing pieces of code such as the PDT editor and adding a PDT parsed value in the game engine. All for limited gain, if the original thought was it was more difficult than IPs. Similar to the reason, maybe, that it takes one success for IPs, and a second for TRENCHs.

Rick

True. This game series has been around for a long time and has come through a lot of changes. Expecting everything to have its own parameter to allow things to be player modded if necessary is a bit unreasonable. 

By the way I keep looking at pictures of Caen in 1944 after it had been 'liberated' and wondering how long it took to clear that mess up.....

[Liebchen]

can't seem to remove rubble no matter how long or how many engineer units I have in the hex.

really annoying.

I have been playing these games for 20 years or so. In the larger (read "longer") scenarios, clearing RUBBLE to allow supplies and reinforcements to get through to the front line has been crucial and the game definitely allows you to do this.

But it takes patience.

But... it is definitely worth it.

But...... don't bother in shorter scenarios, as your engineers would be better-used elsewhere.

[wildb]

FYI:

The rebuilding of Caen officially lasted from 1948 to 1962.

https://military.wikia.org/wiki/Battle_f...#Aftermath

[Plain Ian]

FYI:

The rebuilding of Caen officially lasted from 1948 to 1962.

https://military.wikia.org/wiki/Battle_f...#Aftermath

Jeesy peeps. 

I remember in 1966 my dad took the family to the continent which is what we called Europe in those days. I was 10. 

We landed in Belgium then hit France and Holland staying at camp sites. I can always remember a day trip to Aachen. I'd never seen a nicer, cleaner, more modern city in my life. I guess they had to flatten everything and start new. 

Then we came home to dreary 60's Scotland.........

[All_American]

FYI:

The rebuilding of Caen officially lasted from 1948 to 1962.

https://military.wikia.org/wiki/Battle_f...#Aftermath

True, cleaning rubble is no simple process. Cherbourg could only be opened in mid-August despite all the engineering effort on part of the allies.

[Kool Kat]

Gents: 

In a recent PBeM Danube Front '85 Campaign Game (161 turns), the parameter data lists digging-in at 25% per turn. I utilized my WP engineers in several instances to clear RUBBLE to rubble to allow units to use road movement through the rubble hex and trace supply.

In the longer Campaign Games, especially with a 12.5% per turn chance to clear RUBBLE, this engineer function is important and should be utilized as needed.

[ComradeP]

The rubble mechanic is, in my opinion, perhaps too punishing as the rubble fire value can quite low (1000 in Scheldt '44 and other new titles) and RUBBLE more or less blocks road traffic through a hex.

Though there's a need for some sort of mechanic limiting movement through heavily damaged urban areas, one issue is that there's no difference between T-mode or regular movement costs when moving into a RUBBLE hex. It is unlikely that, say, an infantry battalion would face similar difficulties when moving past a pile of rubble or debris here and there than wheeled vehicles.

I'd also argue that in the average village or even town, there might not be enough "material" around to create rubble. Collapsed houses after an aerial bombardment tend to be the result of an internal explosion (that is: a bomb goes off inside the house) or structural weakness through damage leading to collapse. A house collapsing because direct fire blew away some of the walls shouldn't normally result in enough debris or rubble on the adjacent road to block it.

Cities with a road plan that was redesigned in the 1800's-early 1900's might also feature wide avenues after medieval-early modern fortifications (if any) were taken down. For instance: Arnhem had and has a wide avenue roughly where the city walls used to be. Though damage to the buildings next to the road bridge across the Rhine was severe, it would take a lot more than that to completely block the road.

I understand that there's a need to keep things simply, something like different Rubble fire values for village, town and city/industrial hexes would be nice. In a game like Scheldt '44, a single 24 gun salvo might reduce a village to RUBBLE. That's not right in my opinion.

[Plain Ian]

The rubble mechanic is, in my opinion, perhaps too punishing as the rubble fire value can quite low (1000 in Scheldt '44 and other new titles) and RUBBLE more or less blocks road traffic through a hex.

Though there's a need for some sort of mechanic limiting movement through heavily damaged urban areas, one issue is that there's no difference between T-mode or regular movement costs when moving into a RUBBLE hex. It is unlikely that, say, an infantry battalion would face similar difficulties when moving past a pile of rubble or debris here and there than wheeled vehicles.

I'd also argue that in the average village or even town, there might not be enough "material" around to create rubble. Collapsed houses after an aerial bombardment tend to be the result of an internal explosion (that is: a bomb goes off inside the house) or structural weakness through damage leading to collapse. A house collapsing because direct fire blew away some of the walls shouldn't normally result in enough debris or rubble on the adjacent road to block it.

Cities with a road plan that was redesigned in the 1800's-early 1900's might also feature wide avenues after medieval-early modern fortifications (if any) were taken down. For instance: Arnhem had and has a wide avenue roughly where the city walls used to be. Though damage to the buildings next to the road bridge across the Rhine was severe, it would take a lot more than that to completely block the road.

I understand that there's a need to keep things simply, something like different Rubble fire values for village, town and city/industrial hexes would be nice. In a game like Scheldt '44, a single 24 gun salvo might reduce a village to RUBBLE. That's not right in my opinion.

Yes the Rubble creating parameter is a pain. 

In my Bulge game as the German I try not to use artillery against towns villages on rivers such as Clervaux and Steinebruch....but if my opponent fires during his turn even though it will cause 0 casualties my heavy artillery duly opens up.......and Rubbles the place. 

Of course if I am the US player and the German occupies a town on a river I will try to Rubble the place in order to slow down his crossing.

I guess its called playing the game.

But I agree. Caen was flattened by heavy bombers. Does artillery really do the same thing? 

Plus just exactly how does the Rubble parameter work? is it really a per turn figure or a cumulative figure?

[unonimus]

Wasn't it per fire, so if the fire value of a unit that is eligible to create rubble is 1000, it creates rubble with a 50% chance? That value is 10000 (ten thousand) in Moscow '42, by the way.