Bulge '44 - Movement Wrinkle

[Lethal]

At about the 15 minute mark of the video I found what I think is a movement wrinkle.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-g4IrW932-U

[Green]

No, it is not a wrinkle. The unit in question cannot use a Medium bridge as it is Armoured. So it must pay the cost of crossing the stream (6 MP) plus the cost of entering the forest (45 MP). This total of 51 MP must then be increased by the multiplier for Snow conditions (130%) with gives a total of 66 MP. This leaves it with no remaining movement.

[Xerxes77]

The cost of crossing the stream for a Hard Halftrack is 30, so in theory the unit should not be able to enter the hex.

However, in practice I've seen units use up their full movement allowance to legally move at least one hex, even into terrain and across hexsides that would add up to a higher cost. As far as I know this is not explained in the manual.

At around 21:45 you expect the movement cost of crossing the bridge to be 7 yet it's 6 -- I believe that's because you're crossing an engineer-laid bridge instead of a hexside bridge, so maybe the MP cost is 0? On a related note, what kind of bridges do engineers build, are they heavy bridges? Again I could not find answers in the manual.

[Green]

The cost of crossing the stream for a Hard Halftrack is 30, so in theory the unit should not be able to enter the hex.

However, in practice I've seen units use up their full movement allowance to legally move at least one hex, even into terrain and across hexsides that would add up to a higher cost. As far as I know this is not explained in the manual.

At around 21:45 you expect the movement cost of crossing the bridge to be 7 yet it's 6 -- I believe that's because you're crossing an engineer-laid bridge instead of a hexside bridge, so maybe the MP cost is 0? On a related note, what kind of bridges do engineers build, are they heavy bridges? Again I could not find answers in the manual.

Yes, 30 MP. I am going cross-eyed and read the wrong row.

I believe units can always move one hex unless other rules prohibit it. Such as impassable hexsides or movement from a ZOC directly to another. I will see if I can find this is in the manual.

Engineer bridges are effectively Heavy as anything can cross them. And I believe you are correct that it costs 0 extra movement points to do so. I would have to test it to be 100% certain.

[ComradeP]

Engineer bridges are Heavy and use primary road movement costs for all unit types.

Full hex bridges are Heavy in terms of the units that can use them, but use the movement cost of the rail or road placed in the hex.

Units with movement points that have not moved can always move at least one hex provided they can enter the terrain type in the destination hex and cross the hexside between the current hex and the destination hex.

Movement points and assaulting is another interesting discussion. Provided movement points are "green" (at rounded 2/3 of total), assaults are possible. However, that does not mean assaulting always consumes 2/3 of the movement points. Assaulting may consume all or most of the remaining movement points.

In other words: you can always fire once and assault, provided the unit doesn't Disrupt from enemy opportunity/artillery fire after firing, but you can't always assault and fire once from the hex you assaulted.

[Xerxes77]

Engineer bridges are Heavy and use primary road movement costs for all unit types.

Thank you for these answers. Are they in the manual somewhere, or do they reflect knowledge accrued over the years?

After some tests, I believe Eng Bridges actually work as Secondary roads? This means they're affected by movement penalties imposed by ground conditions.

This would explain why the tank crossing the Eng bridge in the OP's video (at around 21:40) spends 6 MPs-- 5 for tracked Secondary movement (Primary cost is 4) + 1 MP for 130% Snow penalty (rounded down).

What I CAN'T figure out is how stacking works as regards road movement. In the example, 310 engineers are holding the bridge in a forest hex. An armored unit of 24 tanks coming from the rear using road movement can enter the hex for 6 points. The total now goes up to 550X men, exceeding the scenario limit of 350. I would have assumed road movement was not possible. Worse yet, I can still move in another 6-vehicle unit (total 610X) using full road movement. Do bridge engineers and/or vehicles somehow count less than regular units for stacking purposes?

[ComradeP]

Just when I thought anything was simple with PzC...  

After a few tests in three different titles including The Race for Bastogne scenario:

Movement across engineer bridges built across a hexside where a non-primary road connects to another non-primary road uses the movement costs and any associated weather penalties for that (rail)road.

In the case of the example in the video: the hexside the Panthers cross leads from one secondary road to another secondary road. If the bridge was instead built towards, say, the northwest to the hex north of the village, the cost is 4 MP's for primary road movement and weather conditions don't apply.

This is regardless of whether the engineer bridge is constructed "on top" of a hexside bridge, damaged or intact. It applies to rivers, canals and streams. It also applies to AT ditches.

What I CAN'T figure out is how stacking works as regards road movement. In the example, 310 engineers are holding the bridge in a forest hex. An armored unit of 24 tanks coming from the rear using road movement can enter the hex for 6 points. The total now goes up to 550X men, exceeding the scenario limit of 350. I would have assumed road movement was not possible. Worse yet, I can still move in another 6-vehicle unit (total 610X) using full road movement. Do bridge engineers and/or vehicles somehow count less than regular units for stacking purposes?

Engineer units maintaining a bridge (so "has bridge" , NOT "bridge ops" unless they're packing up an existing bridge) don't count towards the road stacking limit. That's one of the nice features of PzC as otherwise movement across an engineer bridge in older titles where units can't breakdown would be a real pain due to road stacking limits.

[Xerxes77]

Just when I thought anything was simple with PzC...  

After a few tests in three different titles including The Race for Bastogne scenario:

Movement across engineer bridges built across a hexside where a non-primary road connects to another non-primary road uses the movement costs and any associated weather penalties for that (rail)road.

In the case of the example in the video: the hexside the Panthers cross leads from one secondary road to another secondary road. If the bridge was instead built towards, say, the northwest to the hex north of the village, the cost is 4 MP's for primary road movement and weather conditions don't apply.

This is regardless of whether the engineer bridge is constructed "on top" of a hexside bridge, damaged or intact. It applies to rivers, canals and streams. It also applies to AT ditches.

Many thanks for your answers, ComradeP. You are indeed correct-- engineers will connect preexisting roads and keep their advantages and limitations, but they'll switch to Primary values when leading to a roadless hex.

I wonder if that's the intended behavior? The example we chose is also a quaint one I think, as the engineers in that hex are laying a bridge OVER a heavy bridge! If there's a reason why they would seemingly waste their bridge instead of connecting with the NW hex, it escapes me at the moment

[Plain Ian]

Many thanks for your answers, ComradeP. You are indeed correct-- engineers will connect preexisting roads and keep their advantages and limitations, but they'll switch to Primary values when leading to a roadless hex.

I wonder if that's the intended behavior? The example we chose is also a quaint one I think, as the engineers in that hex are laying a bridge OVER a heavy bridge! If there's a reason why they would seemingly waste their bridge instead of connecting with the NW hex, it escapes me at the moment

In Bulge games there is a very good reason for building an Engineering Bridge on top of a perfectly good on map road bridge. After you build it you blow up the road bridge, allow your own forces to retreat over the Engineer Bridge, then take it down before the enemy arrive.



If you don't have time to take it down then you abandon it. I hope Mike (DTO) doesn't mind me sharing this tactic.    Its something I never considered doing....until he played me.

Illustration above shows a stream at Saint Vith but Mike blew any kind of bridge except rail......I think he had a sofet spot for them. 

[Xerxes77]

Many thanks for your answers, ComradeP. You are indeed correct-- engineers will connect preexisting roads and keep their advantages and limitations, but they'll switch to Primary values when leading to a roadless hex.

I wonder if that's the intended behavior? The example we chose is also a quaint one I think, as the engineers in that hex are laying a bridge OVER a heavy bridge! If there's a reason why they would seemingly waste their bridge instead of connecting with the NW hex, it escapes me at the moment

In Bulge games there is a very good reason for building an Engineering Bridge on top of a perfectly good on map road bridge. After you build it you blow up the road bridge, allow your own forces to retreat over the Engineer Bridge, then take it down before the enemy arrive.

That's clever. Thanks for explaining!