The Combined Arms Penalty

[Green]

Honestly, I think it should be called ‘Unsupported Armour Penalty’ as Green suggests for clarity.

David

If you insist. But perhaps what we need is an easy to remember acronym. I was thinking of something like Buttoned Up Going Gets Expected Reward. The added bonus is that it is more or less the word the tank commander would utter in this situation.

Your call.

[Green]

Just a couple more things that may or may not be obvious.

The penalty does not apply to attacks into a hex with Clear terrain. A Clear hex with fortifications, is still a Clear hex.

Whether or not an attack is supported is determined based on the combined support totaled across all attacking hexes. So an attack can be supported and yet may have tanks in a hex without any infantry. For example, a defender of 100 men is assaulted from a given hex by 120 men and 10 tanks and assaulted from another hex by 10 more tanks. Because the attack is supported, all twenty tanks are supported. 

And if an assault comprises only tanks, only tanks up to one tenth of men defending are unsupported. This follows from the formula since supporting infantry is zero in this case but some may have assumed that all tanks would automatically be unsupported. For example 20 tanks assault 50 men, then only 5 tanks would be unsupported.

Hopefully this is making things clearer...

[phoenix]

This has been a very helpful discussion. Thanks Green. I hadn't understood this rule at all up until now, perhaps because of the clumsy wording.

[Green]

This has been a very helpful discussion. Thanks Green. I hadn't understood this rule at all up until now, perhaps because of the clumsy wording.

Yes. Once you understand it, then manual makes sense. Pity it does not work the other way round.

[Xerxes77]

Whether or not an attack is supported is determined based on the combined support totaled across all attacking hexes. So an attack can be supported and yet may have tanks in a hex without any infantry. For example, a defender of 100 men is assaulted from a given hex by 120 men and 10 tanks and assaulted from another hex by 10 more tanks. Because the attack is supported, all twenty tanks are supported. 

And if an assault comprises only tanks, only tanks up to one tenth of men defending are unsupported. This follows from the formula since supporting infantry is zero in this case but some may have assumed that all tanks would automatically be unsupported. For example 20 tanks assault 50 men, then only 5 tanks would be unsupported.

Hopefully this is making things clearer...

While thinking about this rule yesterday I thought about a situation like the one described in your first paragraph, but I had dismissed an all-tanks scenario as I assumed they'd all be automatically unsupported. Nice one!

I agree that the overall concept is not that complex, but the way this section of the manual is written, with all the branching "otherwise" clauses, makes me wish that a flowchart had been provided along with the examples .

Since we're looking for inclusive acronyms, I suggest "More Infantry Evidently Required During Assault", which is what a tank commander would utter in my mother tongue when rushing into a non-clear hex...

[Plain Ian]

This has been a very helpful discussion. Thanks Green. I hadn't understood this rule at all up until now, perhaps because of the clumsy wording.

Yes. Once you understand it, then manual makes sense. Pity it does not work the other way round.

Mmmh well I still don't understand this rule? Are we saying pure armour attacks are better than a supported infantry attacks whether the support is 'adequate' or not? That doesn't make sense?

Start adding infantry to an attack and there is a chance your armour will be penalised? 

Surely it should be the opposite? In fact surely it should be that tanks won't assault without infantry support in certain terrain or be heavily penalized if they do?

[Xerxes77]

Mmmh well I still don't understand this rule? Are we saying pure armour attacks are better than a supported infantry attacks whether the support is 'adequate' or not? That doesn't make sense?

Start adding infantry to an attack and there is a chance your armour will be penalised?

I don't think that's the case. Take Green's second example: 20 tanks assaulting 50 men results in 5 unsupported tanks.

Now add just 10 men to the attacking hex. You have a total of 10 supporting infantry. The defending infantry exceeds the supporting infantry by 40 men, and that translates to 4 unsupported tanks.

So even this small amount of infantry is beneficial. Hope I got all of that right...?

[Plain Ian]

Mmmh well I still don't understand this rule? Are we saying pure armour attacks are better than a supported infantry attacks whether the support is 'adequate' or not? That doesn't make sense?

Start adding infantry to an attack and there is a chance your armour will be penalised?

I don't think that's the case. Take Green's second example: 20 tanks assaulting 50 men results in 5 unsupported tanks.

Now add just 10 men to the attacking hex. You have a total of 10 supporting infantry. The defending infantry exceeds the supporting infantry by 40 men, and that translates to 4 unsupported tanks.

So even this small amount of infantry is beneficial. Hope I got all of that right...?

So does this mean then that if there are 0 supporting infantry then all 20 tanks are penalized? I've always assume that they attack at full strength?

[Xerxes77]

Mmmh well I still don't understand this rule? Are we saying pure armour attacks are better than a supported infantry attacks whether the support is 'adequate' or not? That doesn't make sense?

Start adding infantry to an attack and there is a chance your armour will be penalised?

I don't think that's the case. Take Green's second example: 20 tanks assaulting 50 men results in 5 unsupported tanks.

Now add just 10 men to the attacking hex. You have a total of 10 supporting infantry. The defending infantry exceeds the supporting infantry by 40 men, and that translates to 4 unsupported tanks.

So even this small amount of infantry is beneficial. Hope I got all of that right...?

So does this mean then that if there are 0 supporting infantry then all 20 tanks are penalized? I've always assume that they attack at full strength?

They don't all attack at full strength, but only 5 of them are penalized. Let's see the breakdown for a given HEX involved in an attack on a *non-clear hex containing enemy infantry*:

Attacking force: 20 tanks
Defending force: 50 men

Attacking supporting infantry: 0
Defending infantry in excess of attacking supporting infantry: 50

Tens of defending infantry in excess of supporting infantry: 5 (since 50 - 0 = 50, i.e. 5 tens)
Ergo, penalized tanks in attacking force: 5

[Plain Ian]

Mmmh well I still don't understand this rule? Are we saying pure armour attacks are better than a supported infantry attacks whether the support is 'adequate' or not? That doesn't make sense?

Start adding infantry to an attack and there is a chance your armour will be penalised?

I don't think that's the case. Take Green's second example: 20 tanks assaulting 50 men results in 5 unsupported tanks.

Now add just 10 men to the attacking hex. You have a total of 10 supporting infantry. The defending infantry exceeds the supporting infantry by 40 men, and that translates to 4 unsupported tanks.

So even this small amount of infantry is beneficial. Hope I got all of that right...?

So does this mean then that if there are 0 supporting infantry then all 20 tanks are penalized? I've always assume that they attack at full strength?

They don't all attack at full strength, but only 5 of them are penalized. Let's see the breakdown for a given HEX involved in an attack on a *non-clear hex containing enemy infantry*:

Attacking force: 20 tanks
Defending force: 50 men

Attacking supporting infantry: 0
Defending infantry in excess of attacking supporting infantry: 50

Tens of defending infantry in excess of supporting infantry: 5 (since 50 - 0 = 50, i.e. 5 tens)
Ergo, penalized tanks in attacking force: 5

No what I mean is if you attack with NO infantry then do all the tanks get penalized?