Isolation question

CountryBoy · 05-05-2021, 06:24 AM,

Hi Green,

No, the units have all been in that exact position for at least 3 turns. Nobody has moved at all. I just can't see why they aren't isolated.

I will ask my opponent what he thinks, he has been playing PzC for something like 20 years.

05-05-2021, 06:30 AM,

(05-05-2021, 06:24 AM)CountryBoy Wrote: No, the units have all been in that exact position for at least 3 turns. Nobody has moved at all. I just can't see why they aren't isolated.

Post a save file demonstrating the issue. We will take a look.

CountryBoy · 05-05-2021, 06:56 AM,

I was just thinking that. I'll do it when I get back from work.

ComradeP · (This post was last modified: 05-05-2021, 05:01 PM by ComradeP.)

What supply rules are you using?

Is it possible that one of the units with an infantry counter has engineer abilities?

I could isolate the units normally when I tried to recreate your situation.

[Image: ViKbnrQ.jpg]

CountryBoy · 05-05-2021, 07:41 PM,

I reloaded the past saves and this is the sequence:

At the start of the German turn, Turn 10, it looked like this - the units were not isolated and the bridge was intact

[Image: T10.png]

At the start of the German turn, Turn 11, it looked like this - The Russians had blown the bridge during their Turn 10, the units were not showing as isolated.

[Image: T11.png]

At the start of the German turn, Turn 12, it looked like this - the units were still not isolated (the screenshot looks the same as no units moved). Surely at this stage the Russian units should be isolated?

[Image: T12.png]

At the start of the German turn, Turn 13, the units WERE now isolated.

[Image: T13.png]

So the Russians blew the bridge immediately prior to the German Turn 11, but the units didn't show as isolated (from a German perspective) until the start of the German Turn 13. Isn't that one turn too many or is it normal?

ComradeP · 05-05-2021, 08:10 PM,

At the start of Soviet turn 11, the engineer unit that blew up the bridge on Soviet turn 10 provided supply to the units on the other side of the river.

The engineer unit moved elsewhere during Soviet turn 11.

At the start of Axis turn 12, there is no new >Soviet< supply check, so the situation at the start of Soviet turn 11 is used. The two units are in supply.

At the start of Soviet turn 12, no supply can be traced to the two units. They are Isolated.

At the start of Axis turn 13, you can see that new situation.

CountryBoy · 05-05-2021, 08:14 PM,

(05-05-2021, 08:10 PM)ComradeP Wrote: At the start of Soviet turn 11, the engineer unit that blew up the bridge on Soviet turn 10 provided supply to the units on the other side of the river.

The engineer unit moved elsewhere during Soviet turn 11.

At the start of Axis turn 12, there is no new >Soviet< supply check, so the situation at the start of Soviet turn 11 is used. The two units are in supply.

At the start of Soviet turn 12, no supply can be traced to the two units. They are Isolated.

At the start of Axis turn 13, you can see that new situation.

Ah, thanks ComradeP. Every time I have a query with PzC it's due to my own ignorance.

I didn't know that the engineer on the other side of the river could provide supply to those units. Despite owning a dozen PzC games that element is entirely new to me. Thanks again ComradeP.

ComradeP · (This post was last modified: 05-05-2021, 08:30 PM by ComradeP.)

No problem. After 9 years of playing PzC, I'm also still discovering situations I don't fully understand. The mechanics are easy to understand, until a point where you don't understand them when applied to a particular situation.

As to engineers and supplies moving across a river, from the manual:

Quote:Engineer Ferry Operations

When an engineer capable of ferrying units across a river exists, then supply can be traced across a river one hex if necessary, to supply units that would otherwise be Isolated on the other side. The supply resulting from this only extends a distance of one hex from the engineer unit across the river hex side.

This prevents units being ferried across a river immediately being Isolated the next turn. It also causes situations like the one you posted. Engineers using Bridge Operations can't supply units across a river using this rule (as they're incapable of ferrying units when doing so, a prerequisite for this supply rule).

CountryBoy · 05-05-2021, 08:28 PM,

Thanks ComradeP.

Does that apply to full hex rivers too, such as those found in Market Garden? Also, is the unit supplied for as long as neither it or the engineer unit move? So for potentially an indefinite number of turns?

ComradeP · (This post was last modified: 05-05-2021, 08:59 PM by ComradeP.)

(Note in advance: I tested this in FWWC, as it's easier to do there, but I have no reason to believe the situation in PzC is different) It applies either across a river hexside or into, but not "across" a full water hex.

In other words: a unit being ferried into a full water hex by a unit with a Has Boat flag will be in supply, but when it reaches the other side it will be Isolated unless it can trace supply to a supply source. The engineer unit can't supply it.

Technically, such a situation can persist indefinitely provided conditions are met. The engineer unit and/or the units on the other side of the river hexside can move and supply/be in supply as long as they're adjacent with the river hexside in between.

Note that although an engineer unit needs full MP's to ferry units across a river hexside, it doesn't need to end a turn with full MP's to be able to supply units across a river hexside the next turn. MP's are fully "recharged" before the supply check. In the case of your example, the Soviet engineer unit(s) blowing up the bridge ended Soviet turn 10 with 0 MP's due to damaging the bridge consuming all MP's, but could still supply the unit across the river at the start of turn Soviet 11 as it/they had full MP's.

The easiest way to put an end to a situation like this is shelling/bombing/firing at the engineer unit. As soon as it is Disrupted or Broken, it can no longer supply units across a river hexside (as it can't ferry units across such a hexside when Disrupted and thus prerequisites for supplying a unit across a river hexisde are not met in that situation).

Units with their backs to a river are very vulnerable and likely to suffer additional losses caused when they're Disrupted/Broken and there's no valid retreat path. Obviously, stacks of A quality units are still very difficult to deal with even in that situation as they can't Disrupt unless their morale drops to B in some way.

Disrupted units also can't be ferried "back" across a river (hexside or full water hex), so they're usually doomed when persistent pressure can be applied.

In FWWC, only engineer units with a Has Boats flag can ferry units across river hexsides.