Isolation question

[Mr Grumpy]

Thanks for the detailed explanation, this is why river crossings via engineer ferrying can be so risky as disrupted units cannot be brought back to safety, so a very useful ability that engineers have but use with caution! 

One more note is that in FWWC you cannot use ferrying in a storm (not sure if that change was rolled over to PzC as well) so it does beg the question if they could also provide supply in a storm, I am guessing not?

ComradeP didn't this situation occur in a recent FWWC game you played?

[Plain Ian]

Units with their backs to a river are very vulnerable and likely to suffer additional losses caused when they're Disrupted/Broken and there's no valid retreat path. Obviously, stacks of A quality units are still very difficult to deal with even in that situation as they can't Disrupt unless their morale drops to B in some way.

Isolation will make the A quality unit automatically drop to B. One of the things I don't like about PzC sometimes is the cumulative effect of modifiers. If a unit starts off at moderate to low quality a few bad things happening to it (isolation/low ammo/disruption) and its junk.....

Interesting situation though. Bridge was blown with a rearguard left on the other side? I guess the aim was to prevent the Germans closing up to the Engineers and Disrupting them before they could blow the bridge. 

I thought the problem was caused by using non locking ZOC rules and changing the parameters to allow units to move through ZOC. However I've realised that whilst units can move easier through enemy ZOC, supply tracing is still blocked by ZOC. So the units would still be Isolated.

[ComradeP]

One more note is that in FWWC you cannot use ferrying in a storm (not sure if that change was rolled over to PzC as well) so it does beg the question if they could also provide supply in a storm, I am guessing not?

ComradeP didn't this situation occur in a recent FWWC game you played?

One of Elxaime's stacks ended up on the wrong side of a river when a storm hit in the Serbia '14 4th Invasion game I wrote an AAR for.

I reloaded a turn where the stack was in that position and it was not Isolated.

Isolation will make the A quality unit automatically drop to B. One of the things I don't like about PzC sometimes is the cumulative effect of modifiers. If a unit starts off at moderate to low quality a few bad things happening to it (isolation/low ammo/disruption) and its junk.....

Cumulative bonuses/penalties applied in sequence have a tremendous effect on gameplay. I'm not particularly fond of the extreme effects it can cause, but the system works reasonably well most of the time.

Interesting situation though. Bridge was blown with a rearguard left on the other side? I guess the aim was to prevent the Germans closing up to the Engineers and Disrupting them before they could blow the bridge. 

Possibly. It could also have been coincidence that the two Soviet units ended up in that location. They couldn't use the medium bridge due to being hard targets so they were stuck on the other side of the river.

I thought the problem was caused by using non locking ZOC rules and changing the parameters to allow units to move through ZOC. However I've realised that whilst units can move easier through enemy ZOC, supply tracing is still blocked by ZOC. So the units would still be Isolated.

To add to that: retreat paths are also still "blocked" by an enemy ZOC even when movement through a ZOC is possible. I was curious whether that was the case and recently tested it in Herbstnebel.

[Plain Ian]

Isolation will make the A quality unit automatically drop to B. One of the things I don't like about PzC sometimes is the cumulative effect of modifiers. If a unit starts off at moderate to low quality a few bad things happening to it (isolation/low ammo/disruption) and its junk.....

Cumulative bonuses/penalties applied in sequence have a tremendous effect on gameplay. I'm not particularly fond of the extreme effects it can cause, but the system works reasonably well most of the time.

Interesting situation though. Bridge was blown with a rearguard left on the other side? I guess the aim was to prevent the Germans closing up to the Engineers and Disrupting them before they could blow the bridge. 

Possibly. It could also have been coincidence that the two Soviet units ended up in that location. They couldn't use the medium bridge due to being hard targets so they were stuck on the other side of the river.

I thought the problem was caused by using non locking ZOC rules and changing the parameters to allow units to move through ZOC. However I've realised that whilst units can move easier through enemy ZOC, supply tracing is still blocked by ZOC. So the units would still be Isolated.

To add to that: retreat paths are also still "blocked" by an enemy ZOC even when movement through a ZOC is possible. I was curious whether that was the case and recently tested it in Herbstnebel.

Well spotted on the bridge. I didn't realize the bridge was a Medium level one. 

And yes the ZOC rules for retreat are still in force despite the change to the movement rule. Maybe something that should be specifically spelt out in the Manual? Then again maybe not as the rules are clear that the change effects 'regular movement' through a ZOC. Players shouldn't assume it changes anything else..... 

As for Isolation I wish there was a delay in it taking effect. Say it takes effect after your own turn rather than the enemies turn. So he moves and isolates you. You get a turn to try to move out of isolation. If you can't then you are Isolated at the beginning of the next enemy turn and take a Morale drop then plus suffer the inevitable Low Ammo effects. (Double whammy)

[CountryBoy]

[quote="Plain Ian"

As for Isolation I wish there was a delay in it taking effect. Say it takes effect after your own turn rather than the enemies turn. So he moves and isolates you. You get a turn to try to move out of isolation. If you can't then you are Isolated at the beginning of the next enemy turn and take a Morale drop then plus suffer the inevitable Low Ammo effects. (Double whammy)
[/quote]

I think I agree with you here. A turn delay makes a lot of sense.

My opponent mentioned that he couldn't move those units across the bridge as it didn't support them, hence leaving them on the wrong side.