Normandy 44

[unonimus]

Sir, is it possible to change the rule of moving from ZoC to ZoC so that this movement is not possible if the unit is not able to move from ZoC to ZoC without a friendly unit in the target ZoC (i.e ZoC movement multiplier is 0 and not a commando/partisan/irregular/assault infantry/flying helicopter unit) and the target hex to move only consist of troops that can move from ZoC to ZoC (i.e. commandos, partisans, irregular units, assault infantry in FWWC and flying helicopters in MC)? It might change the defence of Tokyo in Japan '46. Other than that, I don't see why not. Or, irregular units might be excluded in that list.

Edit: I thought about that and I don't want it any more for commando/irregular/assault infantry units.

[Outlaw Josey Wales]

Remember the scale. What size that hex is. Any kind of terrain that one could use for cover etc etc. It could easily provide that situation. Maybe it's a Locking ZOC issue in the optional rules.

[Plain Ian]

I'm sure Green will be along shortly to correct things if I've got this all wrong.........

Hi Ian,

Actually, I would not have commented at all if you have not mentioned my name! This is not an area that I have experience in but I do not think what you are suggesting would work. I believe it is the Unit Type that the relevant rules are linked to rather than the unit attributes you would be changing in your example.

Regardless, I think MichaelT's suggestion of a House Rule would be a better approach for those that see this as an issue. Changing all commando units to normal infantry would cause other problems. Rangers scaling the cliffs at Pointe du Hoc, for example.   

John

Yes you are right....and I am wrong. It is the unit type which means changing the "COM" to "INF" in the OOB for all these units and this means that they lose the commando designation on the counter and look like infantry now.

The parameter I suggested changing (12) seems to be an Amphibious trait which I've never noticed or heard of before? I've obviously never looked at the back of the Commando or Ranger units before?



I suppose that Pointe du Hoc could be changed to a non Cliff hexside type as the assault is more or less a gimme? It wouldn't make any difference to the game?

Plus if Rangers can move ZOC to ZOC that means the Rangers arriving on the western beach hexes of Omaha can actually move off the beach and begin flanking the defenses....

[jonnymacbrown]

I'm playing as Axis in a PBEM of the campaign scenario and we are on Turn 110, so I have seen what Michael has mentioned.

I wouldn't go so far as saying that it has 'broken' the game, however ability of rangers and commandos to ignore ZOC did make it very hard to mount an effective defence near the beaches. I had to pull the German units backwards very quickly to try and form a continous front line to negate the ability of those units to ignore ZOC. Mind you, I just adapted to it and got on with the game, it didn't occur to me that it was an issue.

Isn't this what happened historically? jonny

[CountryBoy]

I'm playing as Axis in a PBEM of the campaign scenario and we are on Turn 110, so I have seen what Michael has mentioned.

I wouldn't go so far as saying that it has 'broken' the game, however ability of rangers and commandos to ignore ZOC did make it very hard to mount an effective defence near the beaches. I had to pull the German units backwards very quickly to try and form a continous front line to negate the ability of those units to ignore ZOC. Mind you, I just adapted to it and got on with the game, it didn't occur to me that it was an issue.

Isn't this what happened historically? jonny

Didn't 21st Panzer counter-attack the beaches west of Caen? In the game it's not possible, unless you don't mind destroying the only worthwhile Axis unit on the map at the invasion start.

As mentioned above, ignoring Zocs allows Allied units to get off the beaches quite easily (although losses are still high).

[dto]

The Allies do need commando ZOC infiltration to get off the beaches. But later in the battle, commandos end up being used routinely as levers to unhinge the German defenses (not historical for these scarce and expensive specialized units).

So, in my last PBEM, we came up with a house rule: no commando ZOC infiltration further than five hexes from the beach.

Michael

[wildb]

I think a more elegant solution would be to withdraw the rangers and commando units. From what I have been to find out, after the initial assault on Omaha, the 5th Ranger Battalion was tasked with guarding POWs and did not take part in offensive operations until the Brittany Peninsula (they were used to assault the German fortifications at Brest). See this article on the 5th Ranger Battalion:

https://arsof-history.org/articles/v5n2_...age_2.html

[Green]

I think a more elegant solution would be to withdraw the rangers and commando units.  From what I have been to find out, after the initial assault on Omaha,  the 5th Ranger Battalion was tasked with guarding POWs and did not take part in offensive operations until the Brittany Peninsula (they were used to assault the German fortifications at Brest).  See this article on the 5th Ranger Battalion:

https://arsof-history.org/articles/v5n2_...age_2.html

So, would anyone be interested in unofficial mods for the campaign games that withdraw the Rangers/Commandos shortly after the landing? Perhaps at the end of 8th June or even earlier? Would this fix the problem?

I could include other changes if there are any that are needed. The overly high Allied Air Interdiction percentages come to mind as something that should be fixed but perhaps there are other things that should be looked at.

[MichaelT]

I still think their capacity to infiltrate breaks the opening day in N44. It means the Germans have absolutely no chance to hold any beach at all, even Omaha. This game is really the only game in the whole series with this problem. It's great you have the intent to fix the problem. But for me, I absolutely refuse to play this title without a HR that bans the infiltration of the commando/rangers period. The game was already heavily pro Allies before the rule. This just ruins it IMO.

As for the interdiction, yeah it needs a fix. In my own version of the Campaign I reduced the Interdiction to 25% and effect down to 15%. works much better. I also increased the forts to 15%/30%. Added storms and changed the Victory conditions. I think you can still download my version form this site. And definitely use Low Visibility Air.

Even with all that. I would still bet on the Allies winning the game.

[Elxaime]

I still think their capacity to infiltrate breaks the opening day in N44. It means the Germans have absolutely no chance to hold any beach at all, even Omaha. This game is really the only game in the whole series with this problem. It's great you have the intent to fix the problem. But for me, I absolutely refuse to play this title without a HR that bans the infiltration of the commando/rangers period. The game was already heavily pro Allies before the rule. This just ruins it IMO.

As for the interdiction, yeah it needs a fix. In my own version of the Campaign I reduced the Interdiction to 25% and effect down to 15%. works much better. I also increased the forts to 15%/30%. Added storms  and changed the Victory conditions. I think you can still download my version form this site. And definitely use Low Visibility Air.

Even with all that. I would still bet on the Allies winning the game.

Normandy 44 is a very difficult game to balance.  Mechanics that are needed for the day of invasion don't always scale well with the inland battles.

And the reality is that, once ashore, the eventual victory of the Western Allies, with complete air and naval supremacy, plus a Soviet ally that on June 22 was to launch its own massive attack that destroyed most of a Wehrmacht Army Group, means near-zero chance for the Germans to do anything other than fight a bitter delaying battle (which they did).  In Normandy 44', things tend to skew and get out of hand even earlier than the historical Allied breakthrough, since the Allied player has foreknowledge that the deception efforts succeeded (hence slow Panzer reinforcement and minimal intervention from powerful German forces at Pas de Calais), knows when, where and in what strength the German reinforcements deploy, and also knows that the Germans cannot replace their rate of losses.  

I have given some thought to how to address these, but the problem is that you end up with the sort of despised "idiot rules" that would make the game less fun for the Allies, e.g. periodic freezing of units to reflect real-life Allies caution at an expected German Panzer counterattack (the sort of onslaught experience for example at Anzio), unrealistically buffing the morale and reinforcements of the Germans, or laying in extensive minefields and bunkers inland for the Germans to retreat to.

You can make the game more of a nail-biter if you do a "what if" scenario, but again all hinges on the first day.  If the Allies are unable to make beachheads, the campaign is over.  If the Allies get safely ashore, for all intents and purposes the campaign is over.