Slow Pacing in Panzer Campaigns?

[76mm]

But yeah, if you don't like the slow pace then staying away from the winter/mud scenarios is the answer I think.

At the risk of sounding like a broken record, I'm *not* playing a winter/mud scenario. So far in Kiev '43 conditions have only been soft.

Everyone so far has recommended avoiding winter/mud scenarios, but LOL a good many of the Panzer Campaigns games are set in winter/mud conditions...is that *really* the solution? I hate to just write winter/mud games off, but I have. I have Moscow '41, Moscow '42, and Budapest '45, and will never play any of them again, or buy any new games set in winter/spring/fall. Kind of narrows down the wishlist...

The real question here is: is the movement allowance realistic? Four hexes/turn = 2 kph = 1.25 mph. Consider that a normal walking pace is usually 3-4 mph (no load, level firm ground). Now consider a soldier carrying anywhere from 25-50 (70?) lbs. of gear in combat conditions and I think 1.25 mph is reasonable.

I agree that reasonable people could disagree about what movement allowance is realistic. To me these seem a bit low, but whatever.

But that's not the "real question," which in my view is whether having most units being able to move one hex per turn is a fun gaming experience. This could be fixed not only by increasing movement allowances, but for instance by changing the time scale from two hours per turn to three or four.

[Kool Kat]

You want speed? Why not play one of the desert titles? That will give you over 150 scenarios to play. If the desert is not your cup of tea, why don't you only play scenarios set in the summer - no winter or mud conditions? That should give you another 150 + scenarios to play. 

So you define "speed" as being able to move more than one hex per turn?  So anything more than 500 meters per hour is "speed"?  Um, OK...

And as already explained, I'm *not* playing with winter or mud conditions, but soft conditions...

If all else fails, maybe go play a first person shooter video game? 

I see...so if someone doesn't agree with your position, then they are only fit to play FPS games.  Got it.

Gent:

Wow! 

I'm not telling anyone including yourself what to do. I am offering my opinion and thoughts on the subject.

Your "solution" to the "problem" as you define it is to increase the time scale? How do you propose to implement that "solution?" Would that not break hundreds of scenarios?

IMHO, movement "speed" is not a problem in the PzC Series. It's one of those "non-issues" that will get its 15-minutes of fame in the Forums and then fade away. 

[Outlaw Josey Wales]

You ever walk through soft sand? It's a real bitch. Especially, with all the gear you are carrying. There is a big difference between walking on soft ground vs walking on hard packed surfaces. Lord Deadwood is correct except for one thing he forgot. Besides the extra 25-75 lbs, there is also the extra weight of the gear you always wear. Combat Boots, Web gear. gas mask, helmet, flak vest, weapons, ammo, Night Vision Goggles and anything else I missed. I have been there, just not in combat either. But, I trained in that for four years. I think JTS has it about as close as you can get.

Like it has been mentioned, there are plenty of games and scenarios throughout PzCs/MCs. There are also PBs. But, being a somewhat new series, there are only 3 games out, so far. Kursk, Normandy and North Africa 1941.

Also, there is the option of playing with programmed weather or leaving it to the whim of randomness.

[76mm]

Your "solution" to the "problem" as you define it is to increase the time scale? How do you propose to implement that "solution?" Would that not break hundreds of scenarios?

Sure, but I'm not talking about fixing existing games...I'm suggesting that the devs tinker with time scales for future games, especially for those set in winter/mud conditions so that more units could at least move--gasp--two hexes per turn. At least a few other players on this thread have mentioned that they avoid winter/mud scenarios...maybe make them in a way that more players would like them? I'm genuinely curious what people think about this snail's pace?

You ever walk through soft sand? It's a real bitch. Especially, with all the gear you are carrying.

But "soft" conditions are not meant to show "soft sand"--it is just the stage between "normal" and "mud" conditions. But again, reasonable people can disagree about the speed at which troops should be moving across the battlefield, but that is not really the question I'm asking: the question is whether people think it is good game play to have most units being only able to move one hex per turn, even in non-winter/mud conditions?

Personally I find that it makes the winter/mud campaign games unplayable, just due to the sheer tedium of moving thousands of units hex-by-hex across the huge campaign maps. I'm interested in hearing how many players disagree?

[Kool Kat]

One of the main reasons I don't play or compete in Panzer Campaigns. I found Minsk '44 and other titles way to slow with marsh and swamps everywhere in all kinds of conditions. I'll stick to the Campaign Series where mobility is a lot better in mud and snow. Definitely a whole lot better in clear weather.

Not sure what the answer is here to help movement in Panzer Campaigns. I feel the development team needs to take a closer look at the movement issue.

Hey John: 

Why would you compare the movement rates in a platoon-level scale game like the Campaign Series (1 hex = 250 meters / 1 turn = minutes) to a battalion-level game series like PzC ( 1 hex = 1 km / 1 turn = 2 hours)? 

That's an apples-to-oranges "comparison" and irrelevant. 

Why do you believe that the movement rates need help especially since you don't play or compete in PzC?

[wildb]

You could tie the movement to the fatigue level of the unit and its quality.

For example, a quality level A unit with no fatigue or low fatigue could move 3 hexes. At medium fatigue it could move two hexes. At high fatigue it could move one hex. At maximum fatigue it could not move until has had its fatigue has recovered to high fatigue.

[Big Ivan]

One of the main reasons I don't play or compete in Panzer Campaigns. I found Minsk '44 and other titles way to slow with marsh and swamps everywhere in all kinds of conditions. I'll stick to the Campaign Series where mobility is a lot better in mud and snow. Definitely a whole lot better in clear weather.

Not sure what the answer is here to help movement in Panzer Campaigns. I feel the development team needs to take a closer look at the movement issue.

Hey John: 

Why would you compare the movement rates in a platoon-level scale game like the Campaign Series (1 hex = 250 meters / 1 turn = minutes) to a battalion-level game series like PzC ( 1 hex = 1 km / 1 turn = 2 hours)? 

That's an apples-to-oranges "comparison" and irrelevant. 

Why do you believe that the movement rates need help especially since you don't play or compete in PzC?

Hi Mike,

Your right in part, I am comparing apples to oranges. However it is kind of fun to see the differences in the two games. 

But consider this. In the Campaign Series 4 hexes = 1km. Each turn is roughly 6 minutes or some players believe its 10 minutes. So with these two time constraints you can have either 10 turns in an hour or 6 turns in an hour, An infantry platoon in mud or snow can move over level open ground (clear terrain) 2 hexes unabated. So in 10 Turns it can go 20 hexes (5km) using the 6 minute time frame. In 6 Turns it can go 12 hexes (3km) using the 10 minute time frame. Double that for 2 hours/Turn like in PzC and you have 10 km or 6km in mud and snow. 

As you pointed out I do not compete in PzC on a regular basis because I have other commitments with the Campaign Series behind the scenes. However I do have a few of the PzC games and I do play them from time to time against the A/I. I do tend to agree with 76mm that the game is a bit slow on movement in some venues. 

That having been said I play the game for what its worth. Someone once said there is no such thing as a perfect wargame and I believe that. Take it for what it is I guess.

Take care and have a good day Mike!
John

[ComradeP]

Though movement per turn might be slow in some situations, keep in mind that units are (generally) moving around expecting combat which should slow movement down. There's no difference in movement rate between "friendly" and "enemy" territory.

SSG games had a fairly elegant system where a movement point penalty was imposed on "enemy" hexes regardless of proximity of enemy units, as units would need to slow down due to the risk of there being enemy units around.

In games with 8 non-night turns, C quality units can still move 32 kilometres through Clear terrain each day, every day in Normal conditions without ever having to use a road. That's a very fast rate of movement for an infantry formation. Regardless of terrain conditions, daylight movement never inflicts any kind of Fatigue penalty or causes units to become disorganized in any way. There are never any stragglers, no logistics tail catching up. A unit arrives at its destination in the same shape it was in when it started its move, aside from situations where it's interdicted or Disrupted by partisans.

I agree that movement in non-Normal conditions can feel slow, but Mud and Snow/Frozen conditions should impose serious movement penalties. Moving through deep snow or mud takes time.

There are some issues, of course. Units with some form of T-mode movement other than Foot might actually be faster than Foot units in difficult weather conditions. Example: A quality German motorized infantry units can move 2 hexes in Moscow '42 or Kharkov '43 even without improved Speed when Deployed. This is due to a possible bug with Deployed units with some form of transport receiving the benefits of A quality vehicle movement multipliers.

I agree that it's very annoying when you can't move and assault in Soft conditions. I'm running into the same issue with Japan '46, where the Soft Foot movement penalty is 150% so 9 MP's. As a consequence, C quality units can't move and assault aside from Japanese units which have excellent movement rates.

One thing that would already help quite a bit is no longer reducing D quality units movement points so Soviet units are more likely to be able to move and assault.

[Outlaw Josey Wales]

Your "solution" to the "problem" as you define it is to increase the time scale? How do you propose to implement that "solution?" Would that not break hundreds of scenarios?

Sure, but I'm not talking about fixing existing games...I'm suggesting that the devs tinker with time scales for future games, especially for those set in winter/mud conditions so that more units could at least move--gasp--two hexes per turn.  At least a few other players on this thread have mentioned that they avoid winter/mud scenarios...maybe make them in a way that more players would like them?  I'm genuinely curious what people think about this snail's pace?

You ever walk through soft sand?  It's a real bitch.  Especially, with all the gear you are carrying. 

But "soft" conditions are not meant to show "soft sand"--it is just the stage between "normal" and "mud" conditions.  But again, reasonable people can disagree about the speed at which troops should be moving across the battlefield, but that is not really the question I'm asking:  the question is whether people think it is good game play to have most units being only able to move one hex per turn, even in non-winter/mud conditions?

Personally I find that it makes the winter/mud campaign games unplayable, just due to the sheer tedium of moving thousands of units hex-by-hex across the huge campaign maps.  I'm interested in hearing how many players disagree?

I know.  But, soft ground is soft ground.  My yard is pretty soft, especially after a rain fall.  Trying to walk in the grass is like soft sand, just ask my calves.  It's not much better walking in snow either.  A heavy snowfall can be slowing, slippery and treacherous as well.

I do remember a game where scenarios were set to play with and without weather interference.  Maybe, the powers that be could look at making it an option to play with or without weather interference.  I don't know how much would be involved in that.  But, might double the gaming options.

[76mm]

But personally I'm not asking to play without weather interference. I wouldn't play without weather. But again, that's not what I'm asking about. Actually there are two questions:
1) Does it make sense that most units in non-mud/winter conditions can only move one hex? At this point, soft/mud/snow, whatever, they're all the same--units can only move one hex. In my opinion units should be able to move further under non-mud/snow conditions than under mud/snow.

2) Regardless of how fast units could/should move, is it good for gameplay to have most units, most of the time, be only able to move one hex? If not, this could be fixed by changing the time scale. Opinions? If you haven't played a campaign game under these conditions, maybe you don't really notice it much, but for me marching thousands of units across a large map in one-hex increments is much more tedious than it needs to be.