hexside combat modifiers suggestion/discussion

[wololoh]

Hello,

I wonder, if it would be possible to make some hexside combat modifiers different for melee and fire attacks. For example, for streams it makes sense to me that there should be some melee modifier. however, that means the stream will also stop bullets because the same modifier is used also for fire attacks .
Thus currently the PDT setting basically gives a choice:
    - either streams have no defensive benefit at all (no combat modifier)
    - or they will also stop bullets (because they also apply to all fire attacks)

In my opinion it would be nice if we could set a negative modifier for melee attacks across stream, without affecting fire attacks (or different/less effect on fire attacks).
And maybe a similar distinction could be made for other terrains as well. What do you think?
(Note I do not know the engine limitations of course, maybe it would be much too hard...)

[krmiller]

You need to look at the User Manual.  There are some modifiers that apply to Fire Combat only and some that apply to Melee Combat only.  These are set in the game engine.  In general hex terrain modifiers apply to Fire Combat but not melee.  Elevation modifiers apply to both as do some hexside modifiers.

In my tests in the past stream/creek modifiers do not effect Fire Combat.

[wololoh]

You need to look at the User Manual.  There are some modifiers that apply to Fire Combat only and some that apply to Melee Combat only.  These are set in the game engine.  In general hex terrain modifiers apply to Fire Combat but not melee.  Elevation modifiers apply to both as do some hexside modifiers.

In my tests in the past stream/creek modifiers do not effect Fire Combat.

Yes, I get all my information from the user manual and confirmed with testing. Stream and creek hexsides definitely do affect fire combat, exactly as described in the manual.
(Note that only units which have not moved get the benefit, as described in the manual, maybe that's why you did not see it? (edit: And in some games the modifiers are set to zero, then you also don't see it of course))



edit for reference, this is the relevant part in the manual (and it applies to stream and creek hexsides as well):

Target Unit Fire Modifiers
The following modifiers are applied to the target of ranged fire.
● Target units which have not moved during their turn get a defensive benefit from
certain hexsides. The actual benefit is determined by Parameter Data and can be
found by using the Parameter Data option of the Help menu. If the LOS from
the firing hex center to the target hex center crosses the angle of a hexside the
defender gets the benefit of any modifier on either hexside.

[krmiller]

I  tried to copy screenshots in my post but apparently I can't do that so I've attached a jpg with the screenshots.

I created a test scenario, opened it in Turn Mode with On Screen Results off so I get the Results windows.
I then played a turn doing nothing with either side so both units had sat in place for a turn.

In the first screenshot the rebel unit directly below the window fired upon the union unit to the lower right.
Fire Results Report
Loss of 10 to target unit
Range=1 Modifier=0
Fire=540
[ 135 men x 4(Fire Factor) = 540 ]
As you can see there are no modifiers applied

The next screenshot shows the yank unit returned fire,
Fire Results Report
Loss of 5 to target unit
Range=1 Modifier=0
Fire=456
[ 203 men x 6 = 1218 x .75 (horse holders)=913 x .5 (Def Fire) = 456 ]
Once again no modifiers applied.

The third screenshot shows the two rebel units then melee the unit fired at
Modifier 0 (Attacker)/10 (defender)
the 10% modifier is applied in melee.

I ran the same test in Phase Mode and got the same results.

I had done this previously but decided to do it again since I had not tested the new WDS 4.0 version, there does not appear to be any difference in this version for streams/creeks
  Mod Test.jpg (Size: 136.11 KB / Downloads: 80) .

[wololoh]

I  tried to copy screenshots in my post but apparently I can't do that so I've attached a jpg with the screenshots.

I created a test scenario, opened it in Turn Mode with On Screen Results off so I get the Results windows.
I then played a turn doing nothing with either side so both units had sat in place for a turn.

In the first screenshot the rebel unit directly below the window fired upon the union unit to the lower right.
Fire Results Report
Loss of 10 to target unit
Range=1 Modifier=0
Fire=540
[ 135 men x 4(Fire Factor) = 540 ]
As you can see there are no modifiers applied

The next screenshot shows the yank unit returned fire,
Fire Results Report
Loss of 5 to target unit
Range=1 Modifier=0
Fire=456
[ 203 men x 6 = 1218 x .75 (horse holders)=913 x .5 (Def Fire) = 456 ]
Once again no modifiers applied.

The third screenshot shows the two rebel units then melee the unit fired at
Modifier 0 (Attacker)/10 (defender)
the 10% modifier is applied in melee.

I ran the same test in Phase Mode and got the same results.

I had done this previously but decided to do it again since I had not tested the new WDS 4.0 version, there does not appear to be any difference in this version for streams/creeks.

Which title did you do this test, and what is the stream modifier in pdt? I am not at my home PC right now, but I did a similar test yesterday and fire was definitely modified by stream hexside. Will show pic later.

(Looking again at your pic it seems the stream hexside modifier is zero. The hexside modifier would be applied as a negative value to the attacker. In your melee, only the defender gets a modifier, so that is something else; possibly unit quality. The stream has no effect here.)

[wololoh]

See here the result in Gettysburg, when setting the stream modifier to -32 (see attache pic, I have the same issue with screenshots in the post).

[wololoh]

I did test it in a couple of games, and the result is always the same.

IF there is a nonzero hexside modifier, then the same modifier is applied both to melee AND fire attacks.
(Some games have the stream/creek modifier set to zero)

Note also that this is exactly as described in the manual, so the manual is correct. I would personally like it if these modifiers could be different for fire / melee, but that is NOT currently the case. (This also seems to be the same in other game series by the way, such as napoleonic battles)

Also note I own most of these games, I really like them. I genuinely am just interested in improving them, not just to nag ;).

[Xerxes77]

Yes, hexsides apparently do not affect assaults. It works the same way in Squad Battles, and I wouldn't be surprised if the same principle was applied to the rest of the land-based series.

I suspect all the terrain-related penalties to the attacker are abstracted in the higher odds assigned to the defender.

That said, there is another wrinkle... at least in SB, the only requirement for conducting an assault is that the attacking unit must have 1/3 of its movement allowance (and should be able to enter the target hex normally, i.e. it cannot be water, impassible, etc). In practice, this means the unit can assault across hexsides and into difficult terrain ignoring all other movement restrictions, even for uphill attacks (which normally would consume most, if not all of its movement points).

I consider this a bug.

[wololoh]

Yes, hexsides apparently do not affect assaults. It works the same way in Squad Battles, and I wouldn't be surprised if the same principle was applied to the rest of the land-based series.

I suspect all the terrain-related penalties to the attacker are abstracted in the higher odds assigned to the defender.

That said, there is another wrinkle... at least in SB, the only requirement for conducting an assault is that the attacking unit must have 1/3 of its movement allowance (and should be able to enter the target hex normally, i.e. it cannot be water, impassible, etc). In practice, this means the unit can assault across hexsides and into difficult terrain ignoring all other movement restrictions, even for uphill attacks (which normally would consume most, if not all of its movement points).

I consider this a bug.

Hi Xerxes,

That is not quite right. Hexsides DO affect melee in these games (if that is what you mean by ' assault' ), as long as the hexside has a nonzero modifier. This leads to the situation in ACW games:
- either streams have no effect on any combat (as in the post from krmiller, where the stream has no effects)
- or they do have effect - when a modifier is set -, but then they also affect fire attacks (which seems strange for shooting over a stream).

[krmiller]

My apologies it appears I messed this up.
Discovered my previous test in a back up and it seems I remembered wrong, it was not a previous test on combat across streams, it was for melee across a bridge over a creek.  That Melee Modifier is not in the pdt and it did result in a 0 modifier for Fire since the creek pdt modifier was 0 and a -30 modifier for Melee for melee across a bridge.

As to my recent tests they were done in Gettysburg with the confederate standard pdt that has a stream combat modifier of 0.  And it appears I forgot to turn off the Quality Morale Modifier which was what caused the +10 modifiers for the defender in the melee test I ran resulting in my confusing report.