Artillery problems in Bulge '44

[dto]

Playing the Alt 1601_s campaign in Bulge, and my German opponent is successfully using his artillery to knock out the Allied artillery. I was surprised that the Germans were winning the artillery duel, until my opponent pointed out that the Parameter data gives the Germans a 150 percent counterbattery value compared to 100 percent for the Allies, and a 125 percent indirect fire mod compared to 100 percent for the Allies.

This might make sense for the Eastern Front, but not the West in 1944, where even the Germans admitted the efficiency of Allied artillery. Is this a mistake, or should the Germans get an artillery bonus in Bulge? Also wondering about the counterbattery values in other PzC games.

Michael

[Steel God]

Playing the Alt 1601_s campaign in Bulge, and my German opponent is successfully using his artillery to knock out the Allied artillery. I was surprised that the Germans were winning the artillery duel, until my opponent pointed out that the Parameter data gives the Germans a 150 percent counterbattery value compared to 100 percent for the Allies, and a 125 percent indirect fire mod compared to 100 percent for the Allies.

This might make sense for the Eastern Front, but not the West in 1944, where even the Germans admitted the efficiency of Allied artillery. Is this a mistake, or should the Germans get an artillery bonus in Bulge? Also wondering about the counterbattery values in other PzC games.

Michael

The only other PzC game I have installed at the moment is Sea Lion which shows Counter-Battery Values of 50% for the Allies and 100% for the Germans, and Indirect Modifier of also 50/100% Allies/Germans respectively.  For what that's worth I don't know.  I used to know Ed Williams pretty well and I do know he had a method and a reason for everything he did, so he had some reason why he switched the values in B44 from what they were when Greg Smith did the original design to what they were in the ALT scenarios that he did. 

Now, from what I have read on the subject, the Germans were quite technically proficient with artillery, and maybe their counter-battery skills were better (as their other tactics tended to be on a 1 for 1 basis) but the over arching opinion that American Artillery was so dominating was based on the shear volume of it.  Whatever technical advantages the Germans may, or may not, have possessed, the Landsers in the field would have dealt with the reality of the volume of fire.  Every American regiment had a battery of 105 Howitzers organic to it, their Divisional level assets were generally 4 full battalions, 1 of 155s and 3 of 105s.  Then the Corps level assets are another 6,7 or 8 battalions, usually almost all heavy (155s or larger), plus extra 105s and a battalion of SP 105s to boot.  Even early war German divisions rarely had access to that many tubes, and by late 1944 some "battalions" were in reality only battery strength. 

None of which explains Ed's thinking on the matter, but is merely a way to understand that American Artillery in the ETO could have been considered a war winning arm while within the parameters of a game, their enemies are given a technical proficiency advantage.

[dto]

If success just comes from quantity of artillery, then we're talking the Soviets. The U.S. and Britain had both quantity and quality by December 1944, including efficient fire control systems.

The point is that I've never heard that the Germans had better artillery or counterbattery capabilities than the Allies in 1944. In fact, the opposite is true. In real life -- and in the Bulge '44 game -- Allied artillery was the linchpin of the Allied armies. The Germans would have loved to eliminate all artillery and just have an infantry and tank battle.

It looks like Panzer Campaigns will be getting some revisions. Perhaps it's time to look at all the little factors -- such as counterbattery values -- that can have a big impact on the game.

Michael

[wildb]

The artillery values from three scenarios from Bulge 44:

#16_14s_Wacht am Rhein (Herbstnebel)

Artillery Values:
Allied Counterbattery: 120% Axis Counterbattery: 100%
Allied Stockpiling: 5% Axis Stockpiling: 0%
Allied Stockpile Fire: 150% Axis Stockpile Fire: 150%
Allied Artillery Set Up: 80% Axis Artillery Set Up: 70%
Allied Indirect Mod: 100% Axis Indirect Mod: 100%

#16_01s_Wacht

Artillery Values:
Allied Counterbattery: 120% Axis Counterbattery: 100%
Allied Stockpiling: 20% Axis Stockpiling: 0%
Allied Stockpile Fire: 150% Axis Stockpile Fire: 150%
Allied Artillery Set Up: 90% Axis Artillery Set Up: 70%
Allied Indirect Mod: 100% Axis Indirect Mod: 100%

#16_01s_Wacht_Alt

Artillery Values:
Allied Counterbattery: 100% Axis Counterbattery: 150%
Allied Stockpiling: 10% Axis Stockpiling: 0%
Allied Stockpile Fire: 150% Axis Stockpile Fire: 150%
Allied Artillery Set Up: 90% Axis Artillery Set Up: 90%
Allied Indirect Mod: 100% Axis Indirect Mod: 125%

Artillery values from Normandy 44:

#30-Campaign-1

Artillery Values:
Allied Counterbattery: 100% Axis Counterbattery: 150%
Allied Stockpiling: 50% Axis Stockpiling: 50%
Allied Stockpile Fire: 150% Axis Stockpile Fire: 150%
Allied Artillery Set Up: 90% Axis Artillery Set Up: 90%
Allied Indirect Mod: 100% Axis Indirect Mod: 100%

[Elxaime]

One item regarding US artillery at this time is that they were introducing the proximity fuse. Accounts from the Battle of the Bulge indicate this wreaked havoc.

[Steel God]

A duplicate post on the WDS forum was responded to with “these numbers are from Volcano Man’s Mod, we’ll change them in the next mod”.  That’s it,  no discussion on why they may have been that way in the first place, especially in light of the fact that N44 seems to have comparable values.  The same scenario has mine fields and obstacles galore where none existed historically to slow the German advance, should that be changed too?  The green 106th has a regiment in the path of the 116th boasted to quality C to slow the Germans, historically accurate?   Nope, heck you can make an argument that if the 28th is a D unit the 106th should be an E, but that’s either here nor there I guess.

[wildb]

What the Germans did run into were small squads of engineers blowing up the heavy bridges that the German tanks needed to cross the rivers. The history channel loves showing their Bulge engineer episode where you get the see all those bridges getting blown up.

[Elxaime]

What the Germans did run into were small squads of engineers blowing up the heavy bridges that the German tanks needed to cross the rivers.  The history channel loves showing their Bulge engineer episode where you get the see all those bridges getting blown up.

And the engineers rolling cans of gasoline downhill onto the Panzer column!

[dto]

As I posted on the WDS forum, the problem with fudging Parameter values for play balance is that it's a clumsy tool. For example, if you boost German artillery values in Bulge '44 so the Germans can achieve a breakthrough in the early turns, that bonus lasts through the entire 162-turn campaign.

Unless I looked at the counterbattery values in the Parameter file, I have no reason to believe that German artillery has an advantage when the real history was otherwise. Maybe we should include more information in the scenario description, such as the campaign boosting German artillery values.

Michael

[Steel God]

As I posted on the WDS forum, the problem with fudging Parameter values for play balance is that it's a clumsy tool. For example, if you boost German artillery values in Bulge '44 so the Germans can achieve a breakthrough in the early turns, that bonus lasts through the entire 162-turn campaign.

Unless I looked at the counterbattery values in the Parameter file, I have no reason to believe that German artillery has an advantage when the real history was otherwise. Maybe we should include more information in the scenario description, such as the campaign boosting German artillery values.

Michael

But you just asked to have the values in the PDT adjusted in a direction you think is “right” and not what the scenario designer did after a lengthy process of play testing.  So is it only clumsy when we disagree with the values? Or is the PDT in fact a tool for the designers to make subtle adjustments?