Salerno43: Anzio OOB - T30 HMC vs M4A1 Mortar Carrier?

[MisterMark]

I had this posted up at the WDS forums and wasn't getting any response so I thought I'd try over here.

I was poking around in the OOB for Anzio in Salerno43 and I noticed a unit that may be using a component/graphic that may not be historically correct.

If you look under VI Corps > 3rd (Marne) Inf Div > 7th Infantry Regiment > Cannon/7 you will notice it's using the component for the 'T30 HMC' and it's unit class is 'Half Track' and it's unit type is 'Mortar'.

In game, it's represented on the map with this NATO symbol highlighted in red:




So according to the parameters set in the OOB and the NATO symbol you would expect this unit to be some sort of half tracked motor carriage equipped with a mortar.

However you will notice on the unit card, it's showing a T30 HMC equipped with a 75mm Howitzer which clearly is not correct. In doing a little research, the US Army did in fact have a half tracked motor carriage equipped with an 81mm mortar in the early war called an M4A1:

http://www.wardrawings.be/WW2/Files/1-V ... s/M4A1.htm

In 1944 I believe this unit was upgraded to an M21 but I think it was too late to appear at Anzio. Nonetheless, might this have been some sort of simplification or oversight when making the OOB and the corresponding unit card/graphic?


Thoughts?

-Mark

[MisterMark]

I also noticed in the Anzio_Alt_McNamara OOB this same unit is using the 'T30 HMC' component with it's unit class as 'Half Track' and it's unit type as 'Artillery'. In game this seems to represent the correct image on the unit card and the NATO symbol matches what you would expect, which would be a half tracked artillery unit and not a half tracked mortar unit as in the standard Anzio OOB.

I got the impression the McNamara OOB was heavily researched and maybe more historically accurate over the standard OOB, so it got me wondering if M4A1's were even at Anzio?

Anyone out there with substantial knowledge of the Salerno campaign and early/mid war US unit production be able to verify any of this one way or the other?

-Mark
Top

[5 Leichte Div]

I also noticed in the Anzio_Alt_McNamara OOB this same unit is using the 'T30 HMC' component with it's unit class as 'Half Track' and it's unit type as 'Artillery'. In game this seems to represent the correct image on the unit card and the NATO symbol matches what you would expect, which would be a half tracked artillery unit and not a half tracked mortar unit as in the standard Anzio OOB.

I got the impression the McNamara OOB was heavily researched and maybe more historically accurate over the standard OOB, so it got me wondering if M4A1's were even at Anzio?

Anyone out there with substantial knowledge of the Salerno campaign and early/mid war US unit production be able to verify any of this one way or the other?

-Mark
Top

I took a dive into this question.  I was also unable to pin-point any equipment data from WW2
3rd Inf. Div OOBs. Due to the scenario scale - such a unit would be a gun-howitzer halftrack. Any 81mm mortar units would range only 1 or 2 hexes accordingly. The "7 Cannon" unit ranges 9 hexes at least. 

The unit "7 Cannon" would be a T30 HMC 75mm 'howitzer' halftrack. Those things were originally purposed as a dual AT gun-howitzer in North Africa and Sicily. Inadequate as an AT SP, the Sherman chassis M10 76mm gun replaced them.  The T30 HMCs easily shipped and were still useful as mobile light artillery, also capable for accurate 'direct fire' missions. The M4A1 81mm mortars were less versatile all-around.

The US 3rd Inf. Div was one of the 'early' divisions that saw combat in the Mediterranean Theatre. The T30
HMC was typical to these early units and was still in service in Italy at Anzio in 1944.

The game's unit symbols can be faulty as it is one of the old ones. It may have been overlooked.
And, yes - I also believe that the "Alt" based scenario are more accurate as far as the equipment is used in the game.

How's That ? !
Cheers,
Tom S.

[MisterMark]

I also noticed in the Anzio_Alt_McNamara OOB this same unit is using the 'T30 HMC' component with it's unit class as 'Half Track' and it's unit type as 'Artillery'. In game this seems to represent the correct image on the unit card and the NATO symbol matches what you would expect, which would be a half tracked artillery unit and not a half tracked mortar unit as in the standard Anzio OOB.

I got the impression the McNamara OOB was heavily researched and maybe more historically accurate over the standard OOB, so it got me wondering if M4A1's were even at Anzio?

Anyone out there with substantial knowledge of the Salerno campaign and early/mid war US unit production be able to verify any of this one way or the other?

-Mark
Top

I took a dive into this question.  I was also unable to pin-point any equipment data from WW2
3rd Inf. Div OOBs. Due to the scenario scale - such a unit would be a gun-howitzer halftrack. Any 81mm mortar units would range only 1 or 2 hexes accordingly. The "7 Cannon" unit ranges 9 hexes at least. 

The unit "7 Cannon" would be a T30 HMC 75mm 'howitzer' halftrack. Those things were originally purposed as a dual AT gun-howitzer in North Africa and Sicily. Inadequate as an AT SP, the Sherman chassis M10 76mm gun replaced them.  The T30 HMCs easily shipped and were still useful as mobile light artillery, also capable for accurate 'direct fire' missions. The M4A1 81mm mortars were less versatile all-around.

The US 3rd Inf. Div was one of the 'early' divisions that saw combat in the Mediterranean Theatre. The T30
HMC was typical to these early units and was still in service in Italy at Anzio in 1944.

The game's unit symbols can be faulty as it is one of the old ones. It may have been overlooked.
And, yes - I also believe that the "Alt" based scenario are more accurate as far as the equipment is used in the game.

How's That ? !
Cheers,
Tom S.

Tom thanks for chiming in and offering some clarity... I didn't even think about referencing the range as a clue to determine what was the correct intended unit type in the OOB.  Given what you pointed out, I think it's safe to say that the T30 HMC in the standard Anzio OOB just got accidentally misclassified regarding it's unit type.  The T30 HMC should have not been set to 'mortar' for it's unit type.  It should have been set to 'artillery' based on it's set 9 hex range. 

Aside from the wrong NATO symbol showing and the associated mortar sound when firing with this unit, there really isn't any impact on the scenario balance or play because of it.  Not sure if WDS would care to fix this small error in an future update but I'll bring it to their attention.  In the meantime, it's not too hard to run the OOB editor and change the unit type myself.

Not sure how historically accurate it would be, but if it interests anyone out there that wants to put the M4A1 mortar carrier in their OOB for a custom scenario, I went ahead and made a custom unit card graphic for it:



-Mark

[5 Leichte Div]

I also noticed in the Anzio_Alt_McNamara OOB this same unit is using the 'T30 HMC' component with it's unit class as 'Half Track' and it's unit type as 'Artillery'. In game this seems to represent the correct image on the unit card and the NATO symbol matches what you would expect, which would be a half tracked artillery unit and not a half tracked mortar unit as in the standard Anzio OOB.

I got the impression the McNamara OOB was heavily researched and maybe more historically accurate over the standard OOB, so it got me wondering if M4A1's were even at Anzio?

Anyone out there with substantial knowledge of the Salerno campaign and early/mid war US unit production be able to verify any of this one way or the other?

-Mark
Top

I took a dive into this question.  I was also unable to pin-point any equipment data from WW2
3rd Inf. Div OOBs. Due to the scenario scale - such a unit would be a gun-howitzer halftrack. Any 81mm mortar units would range only 1 or 2 hexes accordingly. The "7 Cannon" unit ranges 9 hexes at least. 

The unit "7 Cannon" would be a T30 HMC 75mm 'howitzer' halftrack. Those things were originally purposed as a dual AT gun-howitzer in North Africa and Sicily. Inadequate as an AT SP, the Sherman chassis M10 76mm gun replaced them.  The T30 HMCs easily shipped and were still useful as mobile light artillery, also capable for accurate 'direct fire' missions. The M4A1 81mm mortars were less versatile all-around.

The US 3rd Inf. Div was one of the 'early' divisions that saw combat in the Mediterranean Theatre. The T30
HMC was typical to these early units and was still in service in Italy at Anzio in 1944.

The game's unit symbols can be faulty as it is one of the old ones. It may have been overlooked.
And, yes - I also believe that the "Alt" based scenario are more accurate as far as the equipment is used in the game.

How's That ? !
Cheers,
Tom S.

Tom thanks for chiming in and offering some clarity... I didn't even think about referencing the range as a clue to determine what was the correct intended unit type in the OOB.  Given what you pointed out, I think it's safe to say that the T30 HMC in the standard Anzio OOB just got accidentally misclassified regarding it's unit type.  The T30 HMC should have not been set to 'mortar' for it's unit type.  It should have been set to 'artillery' based on it's set 9 hex range. 

Aside from the wrong NATO symbol showing and the associated mortar sound when firing with this unit, there really isn't any impact on the scenario balance or play because of it.  Not sure if WDS would care to fix this small error in an future update but I'll bring it to their attention.  In the meantime, it's not too hard to run the OOB editor and change the unit type myself.

Not sure how historically accurate it would be, but if it interests anyone out there that wants to put the M4A1 mortar carrier in their OOB for a custom scenario, I went ahead and made a custom unit card graphic for it:



-Mark

I do agree. Most of the superb WDS games have a hiccup in detail - it is hard not to overlook something
considering the great amount of data/details. Thanks for your additional unit for the OOB. As you've said, it could be another nice OOB option , especially for hypothetical scenarios.

As an aside - anytime that you'd like to test your fancy - Salerno'43 it is. Any size scenario will do - live and learn mostly.

 I do "pay attention" to this overlooked theatre where the Brits and Yanks cut their teeth, and subsequently provided needed information about the German Wehrmacht's methods to assist the D-Day planners.

OK - Be Well , Mark
Tom S    

You can PM me here 

[MisterMark]

I also noticed in the Anzio_Alt_McNamara OOB this same unit is using the 'T30 HMC' component with it's unit class as 'Half Track' and it's unit type as 'Artillery'. In game this seems to represent the correct image on the unit card and the NATO symbol matches what you would expect, which would be a half tracked artillery unit and not a half tracked mortar unit as in the standard Anzio OOB.

I got the impression the McNamara OOB was heavily researched and maybe more historically accurate over the standard OOB, so it got me wondering if M4A1's were even at Anzio?

Anyone out there with substantial knowledge of the Salerno campaign and early/mid war US unit production be able to verify any of this one way or the other?

-Mark
Top

I took a dive into this question.  I was also unable to pin-point any equipment data from WW2
3rd Inf. Div OOBs. Due to the scenario scale - such a unit would be a gun-howitzer halftrack. Any 81mm mortar units would range only 1 or 2 hexes accordingly. The "7 Cannon" unit ranges 9 hexes at least. 

The unit "7 Cannon" would be a T30 HMC 75mm 'howitzer' halftrack. Those things were originally purposed as a dual AT gun-howitzer in North Africa and Sicily. Inadequate as an AT SP, the Sherman chassis M10 76mm gun replaced them.  The T30 HMCs easily shipped and were still useful as mobile light artillery, also capable for accurate 'direct fire' missions. The M4A1 81mm mortars were less versatile all-around.

The US 3rd Inf. Div was one of the 'early' divisions that saw combat in the Mediterranean Theatre. The T30
HMC was typical to these early units and was still in service in Italy at Anzio in 1944.

The game's unit symbols can be faulty as it is one of the old ones. It may have been overlooked.
And, yes - I also believe that the "Alt" based scenario are more accurate as far as the equipment is used in the game.

How's That ? !
Cheers,
Tom S.

Tom thanks for chiming in and offering some clarity... I didn't even think about referencing the range as a clue to determine what was the correct intended unit type in the OOB.  Given what you pointed out, I think it's safe to say that the T30 HMC in the standard Anzio OOB just got accidentally misclassified regarding it's unit type.  The T30 HMC should have not been set to 'mortar' for it's unit type.  It should have been set to 'artillery' based on it's set 9 hex range. 

Aside from the wrong NATO symbol showing and the associated mortar sound when firing with this unit, there really isn't any impact on the scenario balance or play because of it.  Not sure if WDS would care to fix this small error in an future update but I'll bring it to their attention.  In the meantime, it's not too hard to run the OOB editor and change the unit type myself.

Not sure how historically accurate it would be, but if it interests anyone out there that wants to put the M4A1 mortar carrier in their OOB for a custom scenario, I went ahead and made a custom unit card graphic for it:



-Mark

I do agree. Most of the superb WDS games have a hiccup in detail - it is hard not to overlook something
considering the great amount of data/details. Thanks for your additional unit for the OOB. As you've said, it could be another nice OOB option , especially for hypothetical scenarios.

As an aside - anytime that you'd like to test your fancy - Salerno'43 it is. Any size scenario will do - live and learn mostly.

 I do "pay attention" to this overlooked theatre where the Brits and Yanks cut their teeth, and subsequently provided needed information about the German Wehrmacht's methods to assist the D-Day planners.

OK - Be Well , Mark
Tom S    

You can PM me here 

PM sent!  -Mark