Winter Operations - Kharkov '43: Tiller Operational Campaigns Tournament No 2

[Partizanka]

If any can add what to expect with DDR that I missed please reply.

[HMCS Rosthern]

If I read an earlier post correctly, I think we are  going to play with default plus Delayed disruption reporting for options. If so, for the benefit of players who have not played with this rule, I think we should describe its affect on the game. We often discuss rules in relation to realism but not as frequently as to who will benefit. Disruption is one of the rules that seemingly is more related to realism, but has a great deal to do with gameplay since when it occurs, first,  the disrupted unit loses a large portion of its defense capability against assault and second, the dramatic gain in fatigue for the losing units in the assault combined usually with an almost automatic disruption for the losing units. Disruption is an abstraction and though we argue for its justification, in TOC it is really a tool that benefits the attacker in pushing units out of defensive position and thus aids us in moving forward toward objectives and benefits the defender by disallowing disrupted units the opportunity to assault, so restricting them from moving forward. DDR would benefit the defender in some circumstances where the attacker would refrain from attempting an assault not knowing the status of the defending unit, but players with experience will be able to predict that status for a good percentage of the time once they are used to playing with DDR on. But another way DDR changes the game is by adding time for a unit to recover from disruption. This further aggravates the problem we are developing in the game from the use of modifiers when it comes to highly rated units as opposed to lowly rated units and is one where I feel m'ove closer to where the realism is lost when we have these supersoldiers, "A" or "B" rated units, matched against "D" and "E units in situations that not only stretch belief but are not much fun to play. 

This may be the case with the use of DDR here. I cannot remember the game clearly but a portion of our scenarios will be in the snow with limited movement except for ski troops and roads. There are a good number of "C" troops on the Russian side in some scenarios I am pretty sure but also a bulk of "D" rated troops whose progress off road will be one hex per turn, which would limit their assault capability to the turn in which they are adjacent to the enemy, probably following an artillery softening. The Germans will have "B" and "C" units and the benefit of defensive positions in most of the scenarios. I cannot remember the ratings of German leadership in the game but I imagine it is "C" or better for the most part. The designer would have designed these scenarios with that in mind and I question where an addition of DDR in this specific game would be of any benefit on the small scenario level except to the Germans, where they would gain a advantage from the delay in reporting to recover from the disruption. Personally, I don't see the need to give the Germans more advantage as these scenarios were pretty well drawn. But if we go with the change, I echo that only the reporting has changed, not the chance of disruption, so experienced players can gauge when a unit is disrupted to some degree. Still, inexperienced players will probably err either too cautionary or too aggressively which could affect outcomes dramatically either way.

I get what you are saying. This does benefit the experienced players, but most entrants have an ELO >2000 if that means anything. DDR may give the Axis an advantage, and I may be going out on a limb to say that typically when attacking the Russians are not going to wait around for a defending position to disrupt and will assault anyway.  Note that the scenarios have been selected to roughly give both sides an equal number of attacking and defending roles, as well as roughly equal bias. Unfortunately the scenario database does not indicate what optional rules were used.  

[Partizanka]

Yes, I was trying to give players that aren't familiar with the rule an idea of what to expect in gameplay and perhaps be ready to compensate. I don't think I have played with the rule in TOC WWII but have in WWI and may have missed something. I know if there are any "A" units in the game they are the ones that will benefit the most since we won't see the odd dice roll situation when one gets the reveal of the failed command check on an A unit which was always a fun surprise if it was an enemy unit.

[ComradeP]

Soviet quality vs. Axis quality
First round: C/D vs. B/C.
Second round: C/D vs. A/C.
Third round: C/D vs. A/B.
Fourth round: C/D vs. A/B.
Fifth round: C/D vs. A/B.
Sixth round: D vs. A/B.

Neither side can move and assault with infantry units due to the weather. 

Delayed Disruption Reporting prevents "perfect" targeting by both sides because you know the state the enemy units are in. As Soviet unit quality is lower, I would argue it favours the Soviets. Whether or not the enemy units are disrupted becomes more of an educated guess.

It would be interesting to see what kind of effect 4.05 has on the number of morale checks, as the calculation now takes unit strength in men/guns/vehicles into account. In the current version, a few 1 Man/D or 2 Men/D results can quickly slow down an offensive. Delayed Disruption Reporting compensates for the quality gap by adding uncertainty.

[Partizanka]

Soviet quality vs. Axis quality
First round: C/D vs. B/C.
Second round: C/D vs. A/C.
Third round: C/D vs. A/B.
Fourth round: C/D vs. A/B.
Fifth round: C/D vs. A/B.
Sixth round: D vs. A/B.

Neither side can move and assault with infantry units due to the weather. 

Delayed Disruption Reporting prevents "perfect" targeting by both sides because you know the state the enemy units are in. As Soviet unit quality is lower, I would argue it favours the Soviets. Whether or not the enemy units are disrupted becomes more of an educated guess.

It would be interesting to see what kind of effect 4.05 has on the number of morale checks, as the calculation now takes unit strength in men/guns/vehicles into account. In the current version, a few 1 Man/D or 2 Men/D results can quickly slow down an offensive. Delayed Disruption Reporting compensates for the quality gap by adding uncertainty.

Not sure what you mean by "Neither side can move and assault with infantry units due to the weather." unless you are referring to STORM conditions. If you open your turn with units adjacent to the enemy position, you would have the opportunity to assault that enemy position at any time in that move so a potential softening from either artillery or fire from other units prior to an assault with a unit who still had the movement points would be possible unless I am missing something. The difference  would be that one would not know if the softening disrupted the unit until after their move ended. Am I missing another change? 

[ComradeP]

I meant no infantry units can move 1 hex and assault during the same turn.

MP costs for movement are so high in Kharkov '43 that even Deployed A quality units with Speed 5 don't have ~2/3 MP's left after moving. In Snow and Frozen conditions, the Foot MP cost modifier is 200% and unlike in other titles moving into a Clear hex costs 7 MP's without weather modifiers, so 14 MP's with Snow and Frozen conditions.

[LordDeadwood]

I'm familiar with DDR and prefer it in the longer/larger campaigns for the sake of added realism, but with small/short scenarios like these I tend to think that it does have an impact on play balance. I will certainly yield to the majority, but personally I would prefer not to use DDR in these scenarios. I will wait a little longer before sending my first turn to see what the consensus is.

EDIT: Nvm, I just read HCMS Rosthern's ruling. DDR it is!

[HMCS Rosthern]

The goal of this tournament is to have meet new people, have competition, and above all have fun. So I don't want the debate of DDR to disrupt that (pun intended ). Currently there are equal number of for and against.

I am willing to put DDR up for a vote. Please respond by October 6, 2359PDT for or against DDR. In case of a tie it will be DDR. The tournament will now start on Monday, October 7 and ends Sunday, November 24, 2024.


Current vote tally. 

For:
Fhil
Comrade P
Arkan


Against:
Deturk
Partizaka
Lorddeadwood

[Partizanka]

I meant no infantry units can move 1 hex and assault during the same turn.

MP costs for movement are so high in Kharkov '43 that even Deployed A quality units with Speed 5 don't have ~2/3 MP's left after moving. In Snow and Frozen conditions, the Foot MP cost modifier is 200% and unlike in other titles moving into a Clear hex costs 7 MP's without weather modifiers, so 14 MP's with Snow and Frozen conditions.

Yeah, that is true but I was referring to how play would be affected by the DDR rule because "A" and "B" units have a better chance to recover especially if in command from HQ's with equal modifiers. Were this flipped with "D" and "E" units being the defenders it would be less of a problem since they more than likely would not recover from disruption in one turn.

 I think to debate isn't the point since the rule is in place. But alerting other players that have not played with the rule is helpful. We have players of different levels of attention and experience. Last tournament game, I matched against a player that was not familiar with breaking down units in a scenario where it was essential to break down units. It was not an enjoyable game for either of us. 

I see the role of tournaments is to encourage play and involvement nowadays since my completive interest has waned and I play with other goals in mind other than winning. I'm happy when I remember to move all my units and do a dance if I get everybody in command. I smiled when I saw my ELO. I'm playing Comrade P right now in a game and it is one of my worst ever. I am sure he is scratching his head about those ELO numbers. There was a time when I would compete for the win. Now, it is to see how many turns I have to play before I figure out what my goal is.  

Last thought on rules and options. They are relative, imperfect, and like most medications have consequential side effects. Something may get fixed but something elsewhere can be broken.

[Iceman]

The goal of this tournament is to have meet new people, have competition, and above all have fun. So I don't want the debate of DDR to disrupt that (pun intended ). Currently there are equal number of for and against.

I am willing to put DDR up for a vote. Please respond by October 6, 2359PDT for or against DDR. In case of a tie it will be DDR. The tournament will now start on Monday, October 7 and ends Sunday, November 24, 2024.


Current vote tally. 

For:
Fhil
Comrade P
Arkan


Against:
Deturk
Partizaka
Lorddeadwood

 

I vote against.