Is the Kursk campaign viable?

[Copper]

Dear All,

Is playing the Russians viable for the Kursk campaign? I have played the Germans for 2 campaigns and won major victory in both by the 10 turns (in a 121 turns games) by destroying almost the entire southern front.

Does anyone have different experience? Is the Russians playble to achieve anything close to historical results? Incidently, don't mind playing an experienced Russian player and even playing as the Russian against a good German player.

[Mike Abberton]

Are your quick victories coming from bypassing the heavy defenses at the shoulders and attacking through the weakly held remainder of the salient? I think that is a fairly well known limitation of the Kursk campaign, that if the German deviates from the plan, i.e. doesn't attack at the shoulders, he can win fairly easily.

A campaign game then, might require a house rule that the German player sticks to the general OKW plan and attacks along the historical attack routes.

[Glenn Saunders]

Dear All,

Is playing the Russians viable for the Kursk campaign? I have played the Germans for 2 campaigns and won major victory in both by the 10 turns (in a 121 turns games) by destroying almost the entire southern front.

Does anyone have different experience? Is the Russians playble to achieve anything close to historical results? Incidently, don't mind playing an experienced Russian player and even playing as the Russian against a good German player.

I hadn't heard that the Campaign can be won in 10 turns - if you can send me your BTL file where this happen I can take a look and correct this if required.

Thanks

Glenn

[Marquo]

Are you playing or the AI?

Marquo

[Elxaime]

A German player who knows what he is doing and concentrates on winning on points is guaranteed a major victory well before the end of the stock Kursk 43' campaign. To wit:

1. In the south, the German player ignores the historical axis of advance and VP hexes - he doesn't need them. Instead, he aims the main thrust northwest into the weak inner shoulder of the Soviet defense perimeter. Not only are there fewer Soviet units there, but many are "D" quality and fixed in place to boot;

2. The German also launches an attack across the face of the salient with his infantry. Initial placement allows him to isolate two Soviet infantry units on the first turn, and in any case you have "B" quality German units up against mostly "D" and some "E" and "C" quality Soviets - the Reds will crumble unless they commit their second line immediately. Since those are units that historically intervened to fight Army Group South and hold the shoulders, the Soviet is presented with a lose-lose proposition: either let his line across the face of the salient be destroyed, or reinforce it and deprive himself of these forces for the main battle. Usually, a reinforcing Soviet can win back the lost ground around the face of the salient, but that is cold comfort as the front collapses in the south;

3. The north is really just a sideshow - the German attack there usually ends in stalemate, but a decent attack pins the Soviets and keeps them from railing troops south;

4. Soviet forces are fixed in enough places, and release slowly enough, that even a Zhukov reborn cannot change the ultimate result. The Reds basically feed their forces in peacemeal and watch fixed units get surrounded.

The above plan, carried out competently, will put the German into major victory around turn 45, without having to capture Prokhorovka, etc. The German can then dig in if he likes in the south and halt any Soviet counterattack, although this is somewhat like a cat toying with a mortally wounded mouse and a common sense Soviet player will concede at this point.

If the German REALLY wants to be evil, he can reconnoiter and bomb several rail junctions in the middle of the salient that will basically cause Soviet rear area rail traffic to slow to a crawl. The game doesn't model rail repair, so destroying hexes with bombing of chokepoints can be a real killer. Of course, this is not really necessary for a German win.

If the Germans REALLY REALLY want to be evil, they can also abandon all their front lines outside of the main thrusts and concentrate all their forces into the north and south main fronts. There are no VP hexes or VP exit hexes behind the German lines, and all he really needs is a corridor in the north and south to maintain supply. The fixed Soviet units, mostly foot troops, won't be able to keep up and anyway the game will be over by the time they catch up. Again, not necessary for a German win, but can be used if the Soviets try to get creative.

The Soviets can usually launch an ahistoric early offensive by Bryansk Front units in the North and do some damage, but this doesn't tip the scales enough to counter the havoc the Germans are causing elsewhere.

I think the K43 stock scenario was modelled on playtesting of a German player attempting to accomplish the original attack goals. It would be interesting to see how things played out between two otherwise equal opponents using a house rule that permitted the Germans to attack only along the historic axis. But that would be like replaying Waterloo with the same predictable French series of advances - not very exciting. But I don't see how otherwise stock K43 can work.

Marquo and I tested the extreme approaches out and he made a believer out of me. A good German player playing all out to win cannot be beaten in the stock K43 scenario, IMHO. I would love to see a Soviet player step up and prove me wrong, but I would be very surprised.

Elxaime aka Tolbukhin
(can't find my Tolbukhin password so I created new handle - hehe)

[Copper]

[quote=Elxaime]

To summarise:

I played PBEM against 2 different opponents.

In the 2nd game, which ended in Turn 9 (opponent offered his sword of surrender).
Basically I attack with forces in all sectors, even in the "quiet" sector at the nose of the salient. In the south, I have broken thru in the 3rd Pz Div and GrossDeustchland Div sector and encircle all the forces in this sector as well as the Totenkopf Div sector in which I hv reached Kochetovka and River Psel line with 6th Pz Div right behind.

In the "quiet" sectors, I have eliminated the 1st line of Russian defense and the infantry will be loose next day with nothing in front.

In the north, I hv reached the defense line in front of Ponyri and the entire Russian line consists of Disrupted Inf and Arty to be assaulted in the 2nd day.

Basically I have nothing in the area of bombing interior lines or roads.


I think the Kursk campaign has probably made the Germans too strong vs the Russians defense

[Landser34]

My one Gripe in the Campaign game is that the Minefields are not strong enough they hardly inflict casualties like the minefileds in Rzhev does that game the minefields inflict heavy casualties also there is not enough anti-Tank ditches remember that the Russians had over 6months to dig in with the Army and all the locla civilian populatio in David Glantz's book The Battle of Kursk page 376 On the principal likely axes the density of emplaced mines 1,800,-2000 anti- tank and anti Personal mines per Kilometer of front in the main defensive belt in my opinion the Germans blow through the minefields much to easily.one more thing in the game the Panther brigade is way overrated in this game they were more or less a non factor in the battle the first day the ran into a minefield and swampy terrain where alot of the Panthers were put out of action

[Glenn Saunders]

So - what I am seeing here is in PBEM there is a way for one side to win the CG game on points very quickly in the Campaign.

Now if somebody has a BTL file and will send it too me with the password and the opponents name and email address (so I can get his password and see both sides), then I'll be happy to look at what happened and see what if anything I can do to correct the situation.

A pictures says a thousand words in this instance.

Glenn

[HirooOnoda]

So - what I am seeing here is in PBEM there is a way for one side to win the CG game on points very quickly in the Campaign.

Now if somebody has a BTL file and will send it too me with the password and the opponents name and email address (so I can get his password and see both sides), then I'll be happy to look at what happened and see what if anything I can do to correct the situation.

A pictures says a thousand words in this instance.

Glenn

I have to agree with others Glenn. This one is way to easy for the Germans to win in PBEM.

[HirooOnoda]

one more thing in the game the Panther brigade is way overrated in this game they were more or less a non factor in the battle the first day the ran into a minefield and swampy terrain where alot of the Panthers were put out of action

The Panther Brigade has been toned down from a "B" moral to a "C". Thus, numerous artillery strikes and infantry assaults usually cause this unit to become disrupted. I played against an opponent and I found this is the way to handle that unit.

Essentially the German play can and should only use it against T34 units and withdrawing it after making its two shots so as not to be hit by the artillery.