LOS a Problem Maybe ?

[Gordons HQ]

There have been many interesting threads on various subjects and many with a view to adding realism to the game.
There is one fundamental issue that never seems to crop up and yet greatly effects the way the game is played.

I am talking here of LOS and the way it can be used.

One can left click on any hex and straight away you can see everything that can be seen from that hex. You don't need any unit in the hex, you just left click on it and all is revealed.

Now I don't know how you can do that in real life, maybe nowadays send in a drone plane or something, but in WWII there was no options for this.
No the best you could do was look at a map and take a guess what could be seen from a certain point without having any units there.

I raise this point because I believe it allows many unrealistic things to happen, for instance the unbelievable amount of shooting and scooting that goes on in our games.
Also checking out los before moving units there and probably other issues too.

I don't know whether others agree with this and would like to see only actual units that are on the map can check out los, or even if it's possible to change the game

Just a though and view up for discussion,

Cheers, Gordon

[junk2drive]

I have played opponents that I swear check every hex on the map for LOS. I don't have the patience or ambition for that.

I do also remember the AI sending a Soviet ATR team behind my lines and parking it so as to have LOS for arty spotting. I had to send valuble forces back to take out the team.

Not sure that it's a problem. Just part of the game. Same with spotting for arty. My arty never does anything anyway, lol

[simovitch]

I just don't check LOS unless I have a unit or move a unit into the hex first, even in tournement play. Otherwise it feels like I'm cheating big time. It's just not worth it to make an already abstracted battlefield even more unrealistic.

[umbro]

In real life:
1) As the defender of a sector you would (presumably, given the time) determine the fields of fire of given positions and make sure that they overlap and have full frontal coverage.
2) As the attacker - with a topographic map - you can do the same without being on the actual terrain.

Of course, a click of a mouse button is easier :)

umbro

[John Given]

I have played opponents that I swear check every hex on the map for LOS. I don't have the patience or ambition for that.

I do also remember the AI sending a Soviet ATR team behind my lines and parking it so as to have LOS for arty spotting. I had to send valuble forces back to take out the team.

Not sure that it's a problem. Just part of the game. Same with spotting for arty. My arty never does anything anyway, lol

Interesting idea Gordon, you propose a kind of "limit" on being able to see what hexes can see others, save only those currently occupoed by friendly forces. Not sure if the program would support it, but I would! It would make recon units inherently more valuable. Not sure how realistic it would be though - I can see a commander with a map saying, "we need to avoid this area, and that one - the ground is too high there and we would likely be visible."

Junk-2-drive, you say you have lousy luck with artillery? Try these things I do:

1. Blind-shell the enemy. Priority targets include:
a. Objective hexes, especially those near the front, and those of high value.
b. Road hexes, especially surfaced roads, leading from the edge of the board from LIKELY entry routes (i.e. shell arriving reinforcement areas)
c. Areas you suspect contain a lot of units (you saw some loaded trucks in an area last turn but you're now out of LOS? Screw it - blind-shell the area anyway.
d. Get your counter-battery fire set up; switch to 3d extreme zoom-out during the replay...and WATCH for his "muzzle flashes." Now you know where his artillery is! Blind shell the area into oblivion (most artillery units are foolishly set up in clear terrain, and have low defense points).
e. Watch for the retreats! IF you see a graphic or sound of retreating units from an unspotted area during an impact, you just received confirmation there are units of that type in the area (and you quite possibly clobbered a few).
f. Remember: Moderation. Blind-shelling is secondary; spotted units are primary. Also, if you get no retreat or reductions blind-shelling in a given area after say, 3 turns, try hitting another area.

2. Don't use small caliber artillery on built-up areas. By "built up" I mean bunkers, pillboxes, trenches, industrial hexes, and units with high-defense. By "small caliber" I mean 81mm and 60mm mortars, and 75mm and 65mm infantry guns.

3. Try to keep your large caliber guns (100mm +) within 15 hexes of the front, and smaller caliber artillery just out of los, at the front (unless you are in retreat, in which case you probably will have to move well back and set up from a forest hex).

4. Keep your artillery in hard-to-reach areas. If your guns are in forest, surrounded by other forest hexes, the chance of you losing your guns, or having to move them for being spotted is almost nil.

5. Protect your own guns from enemy counter-battery fire:
a. Keep them in forest hexes; cities have better defense but are usually much easier to get to by the enemy. Your choice.
b. Do not overstack - and don't forget to add in wrecks and transport vehicles to the stacking limit for the hex in question. 12 sp's is the limit.

6. Prioritize your targets. HQ's, loaded transports, and spotted enemy artillery are priority targets; infantry is secondary.

Hope this helped you out! :smoke:

[Huib Versloot]

A problem: yes.

It is the main reason that most of the times I set visibility lower than 10 hexes in my scns even on a clear day.
The difference between spotting in real life and in the game is simply too great to transfer actual visibility distances right into the scenarios.
John Tiller must have thought the same as in his later games like PzC, visibility is rarely more than a few kilometers.

Huib

[Herr Straße Laufer]

In real life:
1) As the defender of a sector you would (presumably, given the time) determine the fields of fire of given positions and make sure that they overlap and have full frontal coverage.
2) As the attacker - with a topographic map - you can do the same without being on the actual terrain.

Of course, a click of a mouse button is easier :)

umbro

I totally agree with you Jonathan. That is usually the historical and "real" way it is done.

Most complaints seem to be like "nit picking" what an individual player does not like about the game.
"Real life"? When it applies to CS I find that it is becoming an absurd phrase. And, a very subjective one at that. What seems "real" to one is not real to another?

As Huib's good words state, if a scenario designer has issues with how they want their scenario to "view" LOS the designer has the option to set the visibility range?
And, if players have similar issues they could "alter" the scenario's visibility range (by mutual agreement). It would be just a matter of going into scenario edit and making the changes to the scenario file, saving the changes, and exchanging the changed files.
Though, they may want to change them back to prevent accidently playing with the "wrong" visibility later, against opponents who prefer to play by standard scenario parameters, and see the action as a stunt method? :rolleyes:

It is a game and simulation. It is truly not real life.



RR

[umbro]

It is a game and simulation. It is truly not real life.



RR

Absolutely correct, though it is nice when the simulation provides the mechanisms to simulate the real situation. In this case a) the one click button that saves getting out one's protractor assuming that the topo has been studied in detail beforehand, and as AdP states, b) the designers choices in setting the max visibility.

In the desert and steppe, it is easy to see for miles (literally), however in Western Europe visibility degrades quickly due to small features that are not shown at our scale. Avenues, telegraph poles, a barn etc. Furthermore, vehicles and people are out of place in the steppe and desert and thus more easily noticed, whereas they are part and parcel of Western Europe and thus blend more easily, not hidden per se, simply not so obvious.

Hence it makes perfect sense for the designer to limit visibility in a scenario set in Western Europe wheras the same meterological conditions in N Africa or the steppes have a longer "game" visibility.

umbro

[Herr Straße Laufer]

I guess it all becomes part of the Al Gore Rhythm? ;):chin:

[Gordons HQ]

This is encouraging, there are already a interesting ideas, or two here.
That's it John basically some restrictions on who can see what and from where, thanks. Like you I'm not sure the game can support this.

So lets consider this, some unit can see an enemy unit, it doesn't matter what the units are. You left click on that enemy unit and you can see every hex that the enemy unit can be seen from.
I stress here every hex that enemy unit can be seen from.
Luckily you know the enemy unit has used it's action points so there will be no op fire from that particular enemy unit.
However you are free to move units into any of the hexes that enemy unit can be seen from. You can then fire at will at this particular enemy unit.

So what I'm trying to say here is this is very unrealistic and you need units in these hexes to be able to see this unit.

I respect some people have been playing this game longer than I and yes I know it's a game, but this problem as I see I believe it needs addressing.

Come on guys this is fundamental to our game, lets have your opinions

Cheers, Gordon[/color]