Those useless AT guns...

[SuperIke]

Guys, I need some hints on how to use those damn useless AT guns.

I'm playing the Soviets in the K44 campaign (Volcano Man alternate campaign). All Soviet divisions have an AT battalion, made of 45mm guns. Well, aren't these guns totally useless or what ? I don't see how I can make good use of them. I thought at first they could be useful to disrupt German units in bunkers. Nope, most of the time firing on a bunker with 45mm results in a "No effect" fire result. I can imagine the shell just bouncing off the bunker. Having them firing on infantry isn't much better and firing on panzers is as useless as on bunkers.

So, my question is: what do you guys do with these units ?

[Dirk Gross]

Theoretically, they are useful against armored units. :whis: Kidding aside, they can dig entrenchments for infantry to fall back in defense, or hold positions like bunkers so they don't suffer from the abandonment penalty. They can also garrison objectives to free up other units for more useful work.

[Steel God]

If you're playing K44 you'll probably not have much use for ATGs beyond what Dirk has suggested. However, in general terms ATGs are defensive not offensive weapons. They are successfully employed when you can get the enemy to advance upon them. These is best accomplished either by you determining the axis of advance your enemy will take, or you getting him to chase you and you luring him onto a line of them. But to be used effectively you want them concentrated and well situated.

[Volcano Man]

Also, the question itself does provide an answer. "What do you do with all those 45mm AT guns in 1944?" Hmmm.... lets see... ;)

What they are good for is stacking them with infantry on objectives or on key terrain where the guns can provide assault defense in the form of yet another unit that must be disrupted before the hex is taken. These guns provide very little assault factor, but they can be difficult to disrupt. They also have a moderate anti-infantry capability of course, when you fire the entire stack of infantry with the AT gun at enemy infantry units. Other than all that, we can officially say that they have outlived their "prime" and were in use long after they have lost their effective AT capability, unless you run across some PzKw IIs or Pz 38(t)s in 1944.

[SnowBlue]

AT guns feel more useful in desert warfare, maybe because it feels like you get a lot more of them.

[Liebchen]

AT guns feel more useful in desert warfare, maybe because it feels like you get a lot more of them.

Well, that could be because of those thin-skinned '41 and '42 tanks.

[SuperIke]

Thanks guys. Yeah, as Volcano Man is saying, I guess such a small caliber in 1944 was really outdated. Going to drag them along and have them dig in latrines

[bwv]

while we are on the topic, do y'all think that guns are too difficult to overrun?

numerous times I have failed in assaults by large mixed forces of tanks and infantry against undisrupted single AT gun or artillery battalions

contrasted with squad battles, where for example there is a scenario in AOTR where a platoon of Russian tanks overruns a german artillery position - you almost always can overrun and eradicate a gun when assaulting with a single tank

[Ricky B]

I think it works okay, looking at the way units are actually formed at this scale vs Squad Battles. For example, the German AT units generally had a large complement of MGs to provide close in defense, at least according to their establishment - which are not represented separately in the game. So there is more than just 6 guns present, although the unit shows just the guns. Anyway, in my experience, the AT guns will lose heavily if alone and assaulted, even if they aren't destroyed, and after a couple of assaults are generaly gone. Overall, guns die very fast, so I would hate to see them more easily overrun and destroyed, when it normally happens quickly already.

Rick

[Dog Soldier]

Rick,

I think you are speaking of the stock values. The original question was directed at results in the VM _alt series scenarios.

I have also noticed, especially in T41, that the McNamara DB can make small Italian or German ATG units alone in a hex resist assaults by full battalions of British infantry in Battle Axe or Brevity. It does not happen all the time, but it does happen more often than in the stock version. One just has to alter their tactics when playing the _alt series games.

Dog Soldier