Armor strength disparity on Hummel vs. Rhino?

[John Given]

Hey all, quick question.

I notice that in East Front (not sure about WF) the german SPA "Hummel" has an armor rating of "4" whilst the 88mm AT tank destroyer "Rhino" has an armor rating of three...even though both vehicles use the exact same chassis (Pz III/IV). This strikes me as very odd, and "armored car strength" armor seems very weak for such a vehicle.

Are there any plans to upgrade the armor of the Rhino to "four" in the next update?

Since the Rhino is occasionally visible to the enemy (used for direct fire), its armor would actually be slightly stronger than the Hummel, as I would think it would be supplemented with sandbags and the like.

Comments?

[Jim von Krieg]

John,

These vehicles were virtually identical except for the gun system installed. I would say they should have the same defense rating. However, it shouldn't be more than a lower and smaller profile scout car. These are relatively large vehicles with thin upper hull armor around the gun.

Both vehicles you mention are not tanks, nor are they scout vehicles. These vehicles are open topped SP Arty and SP AT. The armor is to protect the gun crew from small arms fire and shrapnel, nothing more. Neither of these vehicles should be in a gun duel with enemy armor because they will lose if the enemy gets in range.

Some things to keep in mind when using these vehicles.

IMHO, if the Hummel is in direct fire mode, something is terribly wrong. It is artillery and shouldn't be risked in DF mode unless the enemy armor threat in the area is minimal.

As for the Rhino, it should use it range advantage. It should never get close enough for enemy armor to shoot them up. They won't live long that way.

Doctrinal usage of SPARTY would put it in an armored unit to enable it to keep pace with and support the tanks. It is tracked to enable it to keep pace with the type of units it would support. Towed systems generally have trouble keeping pace with tanks going cross-country.

As for the SPAT, it would be used to rapidly reinforce or establish defensive lines in the way of enemy armored formations. It is not generally an "offensive" weapon system. It is defensive in nature. Hang back out of range, using shoot and scoot to stiffen your defense. Used in conjunction with infantry or armor, they can really add firepower to your formation to establish fire dominance.

Just my thoughts on it.

Jim vK

[John Given]

Thanks for the (interesting and quasi-technical) reply Jim!

I was hoping for more replies but no biggie.

I was a little surprised that no one else seemed to notice the disparity between the Rhino and Hummel despite the chassis being essentially identical. And I personally have no idea if the germans supplemented the armor on the Rhino with sandbags / planks / concrete, I just threw that out there.

Since Jason is working on the next JTCS patch, I figure we should all be reporting game glitches and unit anomalies, as he will be considering what to correct and include, so there you go.

[Jason Petho]

Since Jason is working on the next JTCS patch, I figure we should all be reporting game glitches and unit anomalies, as he will be considering what to correct and include, so there you go.

And thank you for doing so. Everything is logged and will be looked over for revision with the 1.05 UPDATE.

Jason Petho

[Pointman]

The USA forces (1953)jeep 106mm anti-tank unit turns into a soldier and walks during the movement phase of its turn.Has a range of 1 like infantry to.

[Herr Straße Laufer]

I was hoping for more replies but no biggie.

Jim von Krieg gave such a complete and fact filled answer there was not room for opinions? :chin:

As Jason said, it's on the "to fix" list in the 2020 update. :rolleyes: ;)



HSL

[Jim von Krieg]

Greetings Ed,

There are always room for more opinions... There is usually more than one way to skin a cat (so to speak)...

I just gave what I consider the base doctrinal usages of SPARTY and SPAT. However, more experienced players will develop what I term advanced techniques.

One advanced technique that I developed for SPARTY is to roll with the armor, but not near the front of a formation. They are back out of range of enemy tank guns. I used them in a direct fire mode to clear exposed enemy infantry so my armor can focus on pounding enemy armor. Hummel's in DF mode are devastating to enemy infantry.

I used this technique in a scenario built around the relief of Vilnius later in the war AND it was very effective. I fired along long lines of site so that my SPARTY was never in danger to enemy counter-fire. A scrimmage line of Panthers would absorb the attention of the Russian tanks. Flanks were locked in by terrain and I had an infantry scrimmage line in the low ground along the avenues of approach such that my SPARTY was under no enemy threat.

It was like having a laser cannon as it pretty much annihilated the enemy infantry scrimmage line screening the IS-2's... my foe's infantry didn't have the benefit of good terrain and were exposed...

You can do the same thing with the SPAT. Just like the SPARTY, keep the SPAT back to utelize its long range fire to reinforce your tank gun line OR to guard an exposed flank.

When I do these things, I need to have good reconnaissance so that I generally know what is around me and to ensure that there are no surprises lurking out there. I like to lock in my flanks with terrain OR with mobile light forces to screen my flanks.

[Crossroads]

This discussion, yet again, explains why I continue to be in love with this "simple", old game engine :)

[Jason Petho]

As Jason said, it's on the "to fix" list in the 2020 update. :rolleyes: ;)

I think we'll try for a 2030 release.

Jason Petho

[Von Earlmann]

As Jason said, it's on the "to fix" list in the 2020 update. :rolleyes: ;)

I think we'll try for a 2030 release.

Jason Petho

Make it in June......just in time for my 82d birthday :-)