AW's Feedback

[TheGrayMouser]

Hello, I think I have finally played enough of these games to be able to give (what I hope) is constructive criticism. Now Ive owned Punic wars since it came out and RCW’s since it came out , but until a few weeks ago really only dithered around once in a while and then shelved the games. I almost wrote them off believing Im just too entrenched with turned based play and NORMAL (haha) uses of hex vertices rather than flats to distinguish a units front. I thought there was a game in there but couldn’t take the time and frustration to figure it out. So I recently forced myself to play about 12 small battles, then a few medium ones and finally topped it off with Indasavio, all in one sitting. My enjoyment and appreciation increased to the point I am really liking them and likely will buy more… However, there still are a lot of rough edges, needless frustrations and issues that mar what I now consider a pretty amazing system. So…

Graphics

Overall look great but 3d mode is tedious to play in due to the size of the units relative to the hexes, the trees that completely hide your units ( I love 3d isometric views but this is over the top!) Units especially in column give the impression you have several hexes deep of them when the reality you only have a single line as the unit graphics literally spill into adjacent hexes.
Suggestion: maybe have an alternate view when the hex size remains but units are reduce 40% in size, terrain reduced as well and finally, units are superimposed over tree graphics instead of viceversa?

Variety: Am a little miffed and the game loses its immersion when Parthian and Pontic cataphracts use the same Hellenistic lancer graphic as in the very ist game in the series. No need to go overboard but a ½ dozen or so new graphics per title for unique units as in above example would go very far!
Glitches in Graphics: not sure if some games are just missing graphics or there is some type of memory leakage but often times routed units will no longer have a 3d figure OR display the wrong graphic ie routed pikes sometimes show medium cavalry in the unity card and on map… Usually this resolves after switching modes so me thinks some type of pointer or memory leak.

Rules and explanations

Im updated to the latest patches and in my folder for RCW, but I have no less than 2 manuals, two rules and a hodgepodge of other docs for FAQ’ , tactics suggestions etc . The manuals and rules have slight differences in various rules, maybe because they apply to other games to the series??…. Which is accurate?
For such a complex game, a more comprehensive example of real combat situations is a must
I cannot , still, figure out what happens when two or more friendly units are in the same hex . The manual says only the “bigger unit” takes casualties as its assumed to be in the front yet practice make me not understand how this is true when multiple units in one hex attacked from only one direction both take and deal out kills… Also , if 2 HI units in line share a hex, 20 meters wide and each has a frontage of 24 men, how can they both rec and inflict causalties to an enemy to their front? Does the game assume your lines are “squeezed” and each unit really only has a frontage of 12 men?
This is clearly an incredibly important part of the game yet I really cannot determine what is going on.
Another major source of confusion are the numerous non defined terms in the manual.
For combat we are told once orders are given, action plays out in an EVENT PHASE.
Then for each ¼ turn there can be 4 combat ROUNDS
Then in the charts to see how effective a unit/weapon is, I learn a Lance/Kontos does x damage on the ist combat MELEE PERIOD, light spears 1 2 and 3rd MELEE PERIOD
But heavy throwing weapons do x damage during the ist CONTACT TURN
It should be self evident and if this was a turn based game I have no doudt I could “back into” these definitions by testing various units in combat and then checking the charts to understand. This is not possible in a wego game, I cant back into these without any full confidence I understand the game mechanics.
What I need is an example, like: Kontos comes into melee with a HC unit w Light spear, they begin combat round 1 , for the ist round lancer gets x, on rounds 2-4 it gets Y(sword only) HC gets ist three rounds at z and then 4th at Y(sword) By the way, does this “reset” the next EVENT PHASE I HAVE NO CLUE as there are no definitions for rounds, turns, ist contact turns, melee periods , yikes, please help!

Punishing the player(with mental and physical carpal tunnel):

Why, when marching troops in column, can’t I use the group command to do so AND get the benefit of xtra AP’s? Why must I order units far from battle and whom should need the least amount of micromanagement, individually? BTW it took me forever to figure this out.. Why do my columns of HI sometimes move at the same speed as line and sometime faster? The blurb of this in the manual is tucked n there and easy to miss! I thought there was some scenario specific ground condition I overlooked… Very frustrating
Also why not allow more than one group command? Why cant a formation change facing one degree and then make a formation change, AP’s permitting etc? If this is a programming/performance thing, I get it but if not…. Maybe allow 2 group commands?

Extra Chrome/needs polish:

I love the feature that surrendered units banners are captured which gives xtra VP’s
However, unless im missing something you don’t get to see this in the victory dialogue.. It would be xtra cool if at the end of the battle rpt you could see all your lost and captured banners, categorized by unit type

Although Im amused when I right click on a unit card to see its detailed stats and find out my gallic archers have crossbows, things like this should be cleaned up by now as the engine is several years old.

Anyways, enough for now. I hope this doesn’t seem too rude or negative. Ive learned to really like these games but I really had to work at it!. A steep learning curve is one thing but a lot of the issues are the game itself be shy about how good it is and throwing up all kinds of barriers.
Now, if someone could please help me understand stacked unit combat and how a Kontos works, whether its ist or 4th period, round ,phase or contact turn, I’ll be really happy
Cheers!

[TheGrayMouser]

Hmm, should have realized the longer the post, the less likely anyone will respond :)

Anyways, after further playing and re-reading the manual several times , I think I figured out some combat questions
It appears for each round of combat the side considered the attacker utilizes all units in the stack to attack (unit frontage and men available to attack is determined on a UNIT basis , not the hex), whereas the defending hex, the biggest unit (assumed to be in front ) takes the casualties. It appears then that there is a lot to be considered in using multiple units in a hex and slitting units. Its seems the more the better although larger units suffer less fatigue etc. Interesting.

So, I am still confused about the units whose weapon dictates they only use that weapon for the ist combat round.
Here is an example: A Lance cavalry comes into contact w a HC with spear on the IST 1/4 round and combat
If I understand correctly, the Lancer uses the lance base value for that one ist round , and then for the next three uses his sword, while the HC spear uses its light spear for 3 rounds before using his sword.
What Im not sure about, is in the next events phase, is the lance and spear used again(ie does it "re-set") or are they using swords for the remainder of being in contact?

To add to the confusion, what happen in say the last 1/4 round of combat on event phase 1, if a second HC spear enters combat... Does the Lancer use his lance vs that new HC but its sword vs the original HC? Then what happens in the next event phase??....

[Dog Soldier]

Hmm, should have realized the longer the post, the less likely anyone will respond :)

Actually, this more a function of summer in the northern hemisphere. More people are out doors than at their devices for entertainment. Traditionally this is a slow time at the club. Most of our European brethren are on holiday of about to be this entire month.

Just give it more time and those who know will respond.

Dog Soldier

[Titus]

Just back from holiday, so sorry for the slow response.

Wow - a few questions here. Let me try to answer the easier ones first -
The 3D view does have its limitations. We are working on a 3D zoom out view (smaller units and graphics) to show more of the map on the screen at anyone time, but this has been a relatively low priority task and has been pushed down the list of improvements several times. I still hope to see this come out as I favour this extra view but the timing is difficult to commit to. However, this would not resolve your concern fully. The view was designed to be realistic rather than gamey but does compromise with the practicalities of the game. We appreciate such feedback as given in this thread as it helps develop alternatives and gives the HPS team options to consider in the continuing development of the Ancient Warfare series. For now, you can go to the menu - Display - Show Icons in 3D Forest and click ON to see an icon appear above the trees telling you there is a unit and what type in that hex.

New 3D graphics will be added as the graphic designer makes time available but his time is stretched and so the game was launched with some old units as place holders. Better the game is out and available than held back for a few extra 3D images. In defense of the graphic artist, it does take considerable time to create 6 views of the same unit group particularly when the detail is so good. Suggestions have been made to show just one very large image of a man for a unit but this looses the visual impact of a massive array of troops so characteristic of ancient armies.

If you encounter a consistant graphic bug please flag the specific case up to HPS or comment here and it will be addressed in the subsequent update. Such mistakes have occurred in the past and there may still be a few out there so we are happy to hear from you.

Rules manuals - go to the HPS Updates on Ancient Warfare and at the top there are 'common files' this includes the Rules Update file. This is the most useful version to use.

The combat queries will be addressed in the next message within the next few days once I get chance to check out a few of your specific questions. Positive criticism is always appreciated and the feedback given in this thread is seen as constructive.

[Colleoni]

Hi,

I'm entering the discussion only to give a short feedback on 3D graphics: in my opinion they're very, very good looking but a little bit too cumbersome when big battles like in example Cannae are fought, this even for relatively fast hardware as the one I own at the moment.

knowing that this is not an enormous issue (game has a good 2D graphics), my two cents would be also for a lower resolution option of the current 3d view to be used on big battles/low performance systems.

cheers

Enzo

[Titus]

To continue to answer the questions raised by TheGrayMouser -

Combat Response –
A cavalry unit armed with a lance (12’ kontos / xyston) during the 1st melee period** of contact will have added factors for the initial impact. Thereafter such a cavalry unit would have no better factors than a standard cavalry unit armed with a sword as the momentum is lost after the initial contact. Similarly, a legionary unit has added combat factors during the 1st melee period in recognition of the pilum but thereafter resorts to the standard infantry unit with sword.
Game testing has shown that this approach does not give the specialised units described above sufficient benefit in multiple turns of combat. Recreating the effects of historical battles has been found to be most accurately represented by allowing these special units to regain the added factors at the start of each new turn. Special units do not regain the added factors at the time when a fresh enemy unit makes contact with them if they are already in combat with an enemy unit; only at the start of a new turn.
** Note each turn has 4 periods (rounds) of combat and the number of combat rounds (up to 4) between two specific units will depend when during the turn these two units made contact. Combat can continue the following turn if the two units remain in contact at the end of the first turn of contact.
Use of multiple units in one hex –
The game identifies which is the largest unit at the moment of combat between two groups during each melee period (round) and this unit is the one that suffers the losses. Consequently, two similar sized units (e.g. 2 Legionary units of 100 men each) would each suffer losses as the larger unit varied from one combat to another in one melee period given they were in contact with multiple enemy hexes. However, only one of the units (the larger) would make an attack during each melee period.
This gives benefits to various strategies a player may use. By using two similar units on the same hex they can share the losses and therefore share the inflicted battle fatigue. This means the stack of two units will not rout as quickly as one unit of the same total strength. However, you do tie down your army’s potentially limited units in the same hex and this prevents an effective mobile reserve as both units in the same hex once adjacent to an enemy unit are difficult to extract from the line of combat. Also two units on the same hex do not get the morale benefit gained from one unit being near-by, protecting the flank or rear of the other unit.
Combat Tactics -
Although micro-mechanics of the game are complex and provide all sorts of opportunities and variations, I find that keeping play at the macro level is the most effective way of winning a battle. The key to winning an Ancient Warfare battle is to apply the tactics of that period and use the historical strengths of famous units in your army. Do not apply WW2 tactics to Ancient Warfare – it does not work. Always seek to keep your army line intact and avoid being outflanked. Keep a mobile reserve ready to exploit an opportunity in the enemy line or fill a gap in your line. Protect the flanks and rear of your slow moving infantry and keep your light infantry in skirmish mode to fire their missiles and avoid hand-to-hand combat.
I hope you find the above clears up a few matters.

---

For combat we are told once orders are given, action plays out in an EVENT PHASE.
Then for each ¼ turn there can be 4 combat ROUNDS
Then in the charts to see how effective a unit/weapon is, I learn a Lance/Kontos does x damage on the ist combat MELEE PERIOD, light spears 1 2 and 3rd MELEE PERIOD

To clarify the above - they all mean the same thing - An Event Phase or Action Phase is the same as a combat round (assuming your unit is adjacent to an enemy unit at the start of the event phase). A melee period is the same as a combat round.

[Titus]

Examples of melee combat are given in the pdf document Ancient Warfare Rules "AW Manual V5" . I have copied one example here -

Example #1
A force of 40 HC charge downhill into the rear of a disrupted Light Cavalry unit.
The Melee Effectiveness Chart tells us that HC armed with light spears attacking LC creates an initial Losses Factor of 6. We next apply modifiers to that number to reflect the particular circumstances of this melee. Attacking Downhill provides a +1 modifier, so we now have 6+1= a modified Losses factor of 7. We add 2 more points for charging in to the rear of a unit and 2 more for "HC charging in". Note that the enemy's disrupted status does not give the attacker an extra point, it only impacts the enemy unit's ability to strike back. Our final Losses factor is 7+4 = 11.
We want to cross reference that row to the column corresponding to the number of troops we are attacking with. That number is 16. Although there are 40 HC in the hex only the front rank of 16 men are eligible for combat. Thus we come up with an actual casualty score of 10.

[TheGrayMouser]

WoW, thanks for the detailed response, I appear to have gotten some of that backwards.

One last question and I will be able to conquer all:)

Do routed enemy units in a stack ( assuming they are the largest enemy unit that stack) take the casualties as they are the largest unit? Ie., are they subject to the same rules as non routed units, including being "pinned" ? I ask because it appears routed enemy units in a multi unit stack often malinger in the front lines for some time without ever moving to the rear...

Thanks again for taking the time with that very detailed response, cheers!

[Titus]

Routed units in a stack will take the losses if they are the largest size unit. Routed units are meant to rout to the rear of the friendly army as quickly as possible. The algorithms for this are based on identifying a suitable escape rout that does not go over an occupied enemy hex. Hence the location of enemy units in surrounding adjacent hexes is checked. The routed unit will always try to move away from the enemy attacking unit. However, if the enemy is also penetrating to its left and right then the unit has no clear escape route. There is also the problem that the identiified escape route may be blocked by friendly units whereby the routing unit can not go in to the friendly hex without exceeding the 100% stack limit. Hence the unit does not move.
To help out your routed unit, avoid placing friendly units immediately to its rear and seek to push the enemy back from adjacent hexes to the routed unit.

[TheGrayMouser]

Thanks again! Actually my tactical problem wasn't my OWN routed units but enemy routed units remaining at the front sapping the strength of my victorious troops.