FWWC - Shrinking fire values

[BigDuke66]

Hi
Can anyone explain why one can witness that the fire value is shrinking each time you fire offensive/defensive fire?
The fire value did not change because the unit took casualties as it didn't took any casualties, also modifiers stayed unchanged just like the status of the target unit.
Not sure how the fire value is calculated but I guess the number of men and the soft attack value of the unit that does the fire, but they also stayed the same.
I couldn't find anything in the manual that explains why the fire value drops.
Cheers

[Ricky B]

Not sure if you are using on map results or the other, where it shows the various factors. One thing that can result in lower impact on the target is if they are getting weaker, as the firepower is related to the target density, but I am not sure the difference shows up anywhere but in the losses caused.

Rick

[jim pfleck]

Did the target suffer disorder? I think this can make a difference because, I think, the engine will target more of the fire at units in good order, and it those units are smaller (MG units, for example), you can see less of it. Also, is this totally consistent or in line with the randomness built into the game?

[BigDuke66]

@Ricky B
No I use full results because only there I see the fire value.
And I think we have no density modifier like in the Napi and Civil War series, but even if so it would like you said just show up in the results not in the fire value.


@jim pfleck
No disorder, with multiple units fire would be distributed like this:
"When a stack of soft targets is fired upon, then one randomly selected target in
that stack receives the majority of the fire while the other units in that stack
receive fire proportional to their strength relative to the total stack."
(p.30 France 14 manual)

Randomness would only be visible in the results as the casualties are randomly set between the low and high casualty value:
"For example, given a combat value of 40, a modifier of 25%, a Low Combat
Value of 50 and a High Combat Value of 250, the effective combat value would
be 50 (= 40 + 25%). This would be 5% of the base-line combat value of 1000.
Thus the low casualty value would be 2.5 (= 50 * 5%) and the high casualty
value would be 12.5 (= 250 * 5%). The resulting casualty value would be
randomly generated between 2.5 and 12.5 for this combat."
(p.86 France 14 manual)

[jim pfleck]

The density modifier is huge, as I recall...To test it, have a stack of one German inf battalion. Bring a stack with 4 French battalions next to it and then another with just one battalion. Spend a few turns shooting at them. you will cause 15-35 or so a turn vs the one battalion and 50-100 vs the 4 battalions

[BigDuke66]

Sure but it doesn't simply seem to be a modifier like in the Civil War or Napi series, for example in the Napoleon series the density starts to kick in at 1200 and runs up to 1800 at which point the modifier is +50%.

I don't see it this way in the FWWC series.
I think the passage I quoted is they way it works in game, so basically you fire, a random unit is chosen that get the full fire value while the other units get fire value proportional to the size.
One has to see how much fire value a unit can generate and how much fire value is distributed in such cases, I assume that all together much more fire value is distributed when firing on such a stack simply because the other targets get some fire proportional to their size.


Anyhow all this doesn't kick in here, just try it for yourself single unit vs single unit(preferably the target unit should be one that can't fire back like a MG unit in travel mode) and turn "On Map Results" off and you see each time you fire the fire value is lower than with the previous fire.


Besides that the Fire Value seems also variable sometimes, I tested a unit in the Nancy scenario(hex 56,10) and it fires at the stack south of it either with a fire value of 646(hits the infantry)/46(hits the MG unit) or 323(hits the infantry)/92(hits the MG unit).
Not sure why the Fire Value changes, especially since the casualties are already randomly generated between the high and low combat results.

Anyhow repeat it by firing on the single unit South-West and there it generates 642 Fire Value so you see that you can end up with more Fire Value generated for firing on a stack than when firing on a single unit but that is likely only because the way the additional fire value is assigned to the other units in a stack that are not the major target.

[jim pfleck]

Hopefully Volcano man will chime in with the details of this but I will tell you this based on experience: do not put more than one infantry unit in a hex unless you must assault if that hex is subject to fire from German, British, or Russian infantry or any artillery or any MG (exception being the small French mg units if only one is nearby). Call it a modifier or proportional fire or whatever. The result is the same---you will accrue a lot of fatigue (which is more important than the number of men you lose) and disorder. I am not sure if I totally understand the underlying mechanics but I do understand the outcomes of various combinations of fire and density/stacking.

[Ricky B]

...

Besides that the Fire Value seems also variable sometimes, I tested a unit in the Nancy scenario(hex 56,10) and it fires at the stack south of it either with a fire value of 646(hits the infantry)/46(hits the MG unit) or 323(hits the infantry)/92(hits the MG unit).
Not sure why the Fire Value changes, especially since the casualties are already randomly generated between the high and low combat results.

Anyhow repeat it by firing on the single unit South-West and there it generates 642 Fire Value so you see that you can end up with more Fire Value generated for firing on a stack than when firing on a single unit but that is likely only because the way the additional fire value is assigned to the other units in a stack that are not the major target.

Okay, I have a few ideas, but not all the answers. I would bet VM doesn't know the details either, although he might have more to add.

First, for this section above. As was stated, the fire is split with 100% firepower against 1 target unit and 50% against the others in the hex. The manual does not have any details on density modifiers that I can find and the firepower results don't indicate anything directly related to density from what I can see. However, I believe there is a combination of factors used, including density, in determining the fire value.

So here, you have in the first example, a slightly higher target density than in the second. As there are 2 targets in the first example, one gets hit by 100% of the firepower and the second by half. So if the battalion is the main target, it shows the fire value is 646, and the MG gets hit by half of its target fire value or 46. Flip it around and the MG is the main target and it gets hit by 92 (double the other), while the bn gets hit by half the original fire value.

The second example shows that without the MG boosting the overall density in the hex, the fire value against the bn is lower by the 4 pts shown. I also setup some tests that confirmed this, as I boosted a target battalion from 10 men to 500, the fire value went up with the strength, from 1 to about 48, based on a weak firing unit I created.

As to why the fire at the MG unit has a lower 100% fire value on it than the battalion, I would strongly guess that the density calc takes into account the target size compared to the overall density in some way, adjusting it toward what it would be if the unit was alone in the hex plus some portion of other units in the hex. Add to that the MG has a higher defense factor, and you have a fire value that is less than 1/6th that of the same fire against the battalion.

So again, I don't have all the details, but the above data does indicate the target numbers do impact the fire value. I also learned a bit of a trick with multiple units in a hex that surprises me, but I won't share that .

Rick

[Ricky B]

A bit further, after reading the passage from BigDuke quoting the actual rule above on splitting the fire value. My tests indicate that the main unit gets what appears to be 100%, and the others get half that, if they are all the same size. For example, firing at 2-3 battalions resulted in the main target getting hit by a certain fire value and the other battalion(s) getting hit by exactly half that amount.

[BigDuke66]

Gives a lot more insight into the game and makes one think twice about when to stack.
I had totally overlooked that the other values I posted were at 50%, thanks for pointing that out and for testing.