Hidden units

[Mowgli]

I was toying around with PzBattles lately, and I though I could write up my findings on concealment. Feel free to add your own or point out any mistakes. 

• Units in concealment (terrain of 1m height for infantry, 2m height for guns and vehicles) stay concealed as long as they don't move or fire. (digging-in is safe; formation changes are NOT) Use the opportunity fire dialogue to hold your fire and stay concealed.
  
• Note that units can stay concealed even if enemy units move adjacent to them!
  
• Hidden units cannot be "actively" targeted by enemy units in the enemy turn. (I suppose they are still hit by indirect fire which affects all units in the hex. Not sure if the *0.25% malus for indirect fire at an unspotted target applies against hidden units)
  
• Hidden units can become the target of actions that hit a random unit in a hex, i.e. by opportunity fire or air strikes - the hidden unit may suffer casualties if it is randomly selected as the target, but it will stay concealed (the opponent will see if the unit consists of men/vehicles/guns though, and also see the formation identity if he has "on map results" off). 
  
• If an enemy unit tries to move into a hex which contains hidden units, the opponent will be informed that he has triggered an assault (and opportunity fire may be triggered). He can still cancel the assault, in which case the units in the hex stay concealed.
  
• Hidden units do not affect your opponent's movement. I.e. the movement malus for moving from ZoC to ZoC does not apply if the unit exerting the ZoC is hidden.
  
• Hidden units cannot isolate the enemy (their ZoC is ignored).
  
• Hidden units are not revealed by the recon spotting ability.
  
• Can recon air missions reveal hidden units? [needs to be tested]
  

[LordDeadwood]

I was toying around with PzBattles lately, and I though I could write up my findings on concealment. Feel free to add your own or point out any mistakes. 

• Units in concealment (terrain of 1m height for infantry, 2m height for guns and vehicles) stay concealed as long as they don't move or fire. (digging-in is safe; formation changes are NOT) Use the opportunity fire dialogue to hold your fire and stay concealed.
  
• Note that units can stay concealed even if enemy units move adjacent to them!
  
• Hidden units cannot be "actively" targeted by enemy units in the enemy turn. (I suppose they are still hit by indirect fire which affects all units in the hex. Not sure if the *0.25% malus for indirect fire at an unspotted target applies against hidden units)
  
• Hidden units can become the target of actions that hit a random unit in a hex, i.e. by opportunity fire or air strikes - the hidden unit may suffer casualties if it is randomly selected as the target, but it will stay concealed (the opponent will see if the unit consists of men/vehicles/guns though, and also see the formation identity if he has "on map results" off). 
  
• If an enemy unit tries to move into a hex which contains hidden units, the opponent will be informed that he has triggered an assault (and opportunity fire may be triggered). He can still cancel the assault, in which case the units in the hex stay concealed.
  
• Hidden units do not affect your opponent's movement. I.e. the movement malus for moving from ZoC to ZoC does not apply if the unit exerting the ZoC is hidden.
  
• Hidden units cannot isolate the enemy (their ZoC is ignored).
  
• Hidden units are not revealed by the recon spotting ability.
  
• Can recon air missions reveal hidden units? [needs to be tested]
  

I think that's a pretty good summary. One of the things I've thought strange about hidden units is your 5th point: moving into a hex that contains hidden units. Many times (when playing the AI) I have moved into a hex containing a hidden unit. In many cases, the unit moving does not have enough movement points to conduct an assault. The game informs the player of this, so now the player knows that there are hidden units there. Also in many cases, the unit does have enough movement points left to fire, but cannot because the unit is hidden. It seems to me that this is the perfect opportunity/condition in which to trigger an ambush. I realize that PzB does not have any kind of ambush rule/mechanic, I'm saying I think one could be added when this condition arises.

[Outlaw Josey Wales]

I don't much care for the hidden units doing everything and not being detected. It's not like they are Rangers, SS, experienced Paras or elite in general that can pull it off. Hidden units can stay hidden, but, when a unit is attempting to move into the hex, defensive fire should be triggered, exposing the unit or units. All units should be revealed as there is not much space available to remain hidden.

[Mowgli]

I don't much care for the hidden units doing everything and not being detected.  It's not like they are Rangers, SS, experienced Paras or elite in general that can pull it off.  Hidden units can stay hidden, but, when a unit is attempting to move into the hex, defensive fire should be triggered, exposing the unit or units.  All units should be revealed as their is not much space available to remain hidden.

I'm only starting to get into Panzer Battles, but I think the concealment mechanics described above turn Panzer Battles into an entirely different beast. Even though the rules are nowhere to be found in any detail in the manual, I suppose that they are the way they are on purpose. I haven't played enough yet, but on paper, it seems as if concealment greatly helps infantry to defend terrain:

Without infantry support, enemy tanks cannot attack into a town held by infantry (combined arms penalty), nor can the tanks just stand back and blast the infantry to oblivion (because they can't target hidden infantry). So, concealment helps infantry to defend "edges" of defensible terrain (without the need to move one hex deeper into the terrain, losing all lines of sight). 

It might even be worthwhile (but risky) for infantry in a town to hold their fire against approaching enemy infantry, hoping for other support weapons (arty, MGs further back, infantry guns, etc) to do the "disruption" job. As long as you hold your fire, you force the opponent into close combat and create one-sided fire situations (your arty hits the enemy, enemy has no target...).

I think I've been trying to play Panzer Battles wrong until now. :) It's not Panzer Campaigns.

PS. Also I might just have picked the wrong title for me. I think Kursk would suit me better than Normandy. Normandy doesn't allow for a lot of manoeuver and recon-shenanigans.

[Steel God]

I don't much care for the hidden units doing everything and not being detected.  It's not like they are Rangers, SS, experienced Paras or elite in general that can pull it off.  Hidden units can stay hidden, but, when a unit is attempting to move into the hex, defensive fire should be triggered, exposing the unit or units.  All units should be revealed as their is not much space available to remain hidden.

I'm only starting to get into Panzer Battles, but I think the concealment mechanics described above turn Panzer Battles into an entirely different beast. Even though the rules are nowhere to be found in any detail in the manual, I suppose that they are the way they are on purpose. I haven't played enough yet, but on paper, it seems as if concealment greatly helps infantry to defend terrain:

Without infantry support, enemy tanks cannot attack into a town held by infantry (combined arms penalty), nor can the tanks just stand back and blast the infantry to oblivion (because they can't target hidden infantry). So, concealment helps infantry to defend "edges" of defensible terrain (without the need to move one hex deeper into the terrain, losing all lines of sight). 

It might even be worthwhile (but risky) for infantry in a town to hold their fire against approaching enemy infantry, hoping for other support weapons (arty, MGs further back, infantry guns, etc) to do the "disruption" job. As long as you hold your fire, you force the opponent into close combat and create one-sided fire situations (your arty hits the enemy, enemy has no target...).

I think I've been trying to play Panzer Battles wrong until now. :) It's not Panzer Campaigns.

PS. Also I might just have picked the wrong title for me. I think Kursk would suit me better than Normandy. Normandy doesn't allow for a lot of manoeuver and recon-shenanigans.

I'm only on my first PBEM game of PzB (North Africa) and I have to say I love the spotting rules (or almost lack of spotting rules).  Like Josey Wales said, I discovered in short order that I could "find" hidden units accidentally and I thought that a little cheesy, and would love if it triggered some sort of OpFire with "ambush" bonus. 

As you correctly point out, this is NOT Panzer Campaigns.  My opponent and I played both the PzB and PzC version of the same battle (Brevity) and while I had very fond memories of T41 and Brevity, when played concurrently, the feel of the T41 version of the battle just feels wrong.  The scale of everything is just wrong for North African combat.  I'm not sure I would find Russian battles at company scale fun because that theater is so huge, but it certainly feels right for Africa.

[Outlaw Josey Wales]

IMO, the Russians just weren't tactical thinkers like the Western allies or Germans. The one exception was Stalingrad in the city itself. Everything else I have ever read were some companies, but mostly whole bns tasked to do something that the Western armies were doing with Companies and Platoons and sometimes Squads. For them, it seemed like a numbers game. That is the way it has always come across to me.

[Mowgli]

IMO, the Russians just weren't tactical thinkers like the Western allies or Germans.  The one exception was Stalingrad in the city itself.  Everything else I have ever read were some companies, but mostly whole bns tasked to do something that the Western armies were doing with Companies and Platoons and sometimes Squads.  For them, it seemed like a numbers game.  That is the way it has always come across to me.

To be fair I don't imagine units that are "concealed" in tems of the game mechanics to be carrying out some kind of ruse or stealth operation. I just take it as the way in which the game engine handles some situations. E.g. infantry defending the EDGE of a village -> tanks should not be allowed to influict many casualties, unless infantry has done the scouting (by means of an assault). 

As for the size of soviet units: The game severely punishes you for splitting up soviet companies into platoons. Platoon-sized soviet units disrupt almost immediately because they need to test against their morale very often (chance for a morale test after taking losses = "losses / losses + 5" for platoon-sized units) and they have a horrible morale. The smaller the unit, the more often it will be forced to test for morale -> no problem for fresh, high morale Wehrmacht units, catastrophical for low morale soviet units.

[Steel God]

IMO, the Russians just weren't tactical thinkers like the Western allies or Germans.  The one exception was Stalingrad in the city itself.  Everything else I have ever read were some companies, but mostly whole bns tasked to do something that the Western armies were doing with Companies and Platoons and sometimes Squads.  For them, it seemed like a numbers game.  That is the way it has always come across to me.

That right there is why I can't picture buying the Kursk edition of the PzB series.  The scale of the game is company and platoon, and the Russians just don't think or work below Battalion level.  In my narrow minded view of things, PzC is the perfect scale of Eastern Operations where the Soviets have battalions that don't break down and the Germans have battalions that do.  The PzB scale just works better in the West, and even the Normandy title (which I have not played) makes me tremble at the counter density at that scale.

[Strela]

Hi All,

Great to actually see some discussion in this forum.

As the 'father' of the PzB series, I'm happy to see you all enjoying the games.

As you are all saying, this is not PzC and many of your observations are correct. One that I do want to point out is that this is really a battalion/company level game. Companies are you're movement elements and battalions are where you plan. No matter the side, platoons are too brittle, at least with the way the code currently works (that's a discussion for another time!). Normally platoons are only deployed on the defense and that is only when the frontage is wide. That actually removes many of the concerns re number of chits to move in Kursk or Normandy.

Battalion management & planning is where it is all at though. I wrote on the WDS blog an example of using battalions in play an the various companies below them here; Link to WDS Blog Post Thinking in terms of battalions actually simplifies the game overall and helps you to play & think historically.

The comments around Brevity in PzC and PzB is correct for two different reasons. Scale is the obvious first and research is the second. The 250 metre/platoon/company level works really well in the desert where PzC is just too coarse. From a research perspective we had to do a lot more in terms of unit compositions, positioning and actions and were blessed with a lot of new work that was not available when the original PzC scenarios were done.

I think this is probably the biggest difference in creating PzB vs PzC in that we actually have to research at a deeper level to represent the actual actions. The positive at the PzB scale is that we get more fidelity on what we can have units do or not do.

Finally, as a system I think its a boatload of fun to play. Ranged fire, concealment and the wide range of unit capabilities gives a lot more colour and nuance than PzC and that is always a welcome change.

David

[Dog Soldier]

For those of you who are discovering the hidden units feature of PZB, you are in for a treat.

There are so many tactical options to use for hidden units that playing PzB as a defender is much more interesting than being a PzC punching bag in HTH play.

Yes, you can "ambush" with hidden units. Killing the attackers HQ motoring in travel mode in the "safe rear area" is a hoot!
Nailing rampaging T-34s that broke through the front lines with hidden AT guns or panzerfaust armed panzer grenadiers in a secondary position over lookiing the breakout area is another use.

And so much more....

If you have been playing only the AI as a defender, it tends to not ambush much. As a live defending player, check your options in opportunity fire settings when hiding units. Try to remember who you set and and why. The game does not always develop the way you anticipate, but when the opportunity presents itself, enjoy!

As for Steel God, I should come back soon and we can have a PzB game. Love to get a chance to beat you for once as your just a noob to PzB. You were far to good at PzC. Got close a few times, but you always mastered a win in PzC.
Good gaming to you all!

Dog Soldier