Spring Awakening 45' - Questions for Designer

[Elxaime]

Hi -

I am playing PBEM as Soviet side in the historical scenario, version 4.04.  We are at Turn 61, and I have noticed two things:

- the 31st GDs Rifle Corps of the 4th GDs Army never releases and is permanently fixed
- while the two battalions of 3rd Tank Brigade of the 23rd Tank Corps arrive released, the 23rd Tank Corps itself remains permanently fixed

Not sure if this was intended or an oversight.  Welcome thoughts.

JVJ

[Indragnir]

Hi -

I am playing PBEM as Soviet side in the historical scenario, version 4.04.  We are at Turn 61, and I have noticed two things:

- the 31st GDs Rifle Corps of the 4th GDs Army never releases and is permanently fixed
- while the two battalions of 3rd Tank Brigade of the 23rd Tank Corps arrive released, the 23rd Tank Corps itself remains permanently fixed

Not sure if this was intended or an oversight.  Welcome thoughts.

JVJ

Hi James,

Regarding 23rd Tank Corps it seems there is an error in all campaign scenarios. (01-02-14-15 in both PBEM and vs AI) It should release by 8 March.

Regarding 31st GRC it has a conditional release of 14 March on some campaign scenarios which is right and intended and for others that release is missing.

Both are fixed now. Sorry for that. 
I think the game build will be updated very soon. In the meanwhile use this dropbox link.
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/urglazansod9z...xIg-a?dl=0

[Elxaime]

Hi Cesar -

Thanks! Appreciate the response.

Another thought as you consider updates: in the historical campaign (and I assume its variants) the behind-the-front hard road network enables options for the Axis player to shift armor/mechanized forces to attack different areas of the Soviet front, not just the north where they were historically concentrated. This is great! It adds uncertainty and aids in replay. However, the Soviet placements and release and arrival times all presume the historical axes of assault. If other areas are attacked by shifting masses of the German armor south, e.g., the Bulgarians, the Soviet side forces remain fixed and cannot react.

This is not a huge issue, since there are downsides, IMO, to this strategy as well. But you may want to assess the ability of the Soviet side to react to different or unorthodox strategies. If you do so, you may also want to adjust the Axis VP values in the west and south, to make these different approaches worthwhile to the Axis. Perhaps there are historical reasons not to do so, since the Axis seems fully committed to a major northern push. But in game terms, it may be useful to do so.

Another approach would be to provide each side strategies, where the Axis can alter where they deploy and the Soviet side likewise, creating a "guessing game." This is more for "what if" type variants though.

On last thing. You may want to consider making the furthest SE corner of the map impassable. Neither side has forces there, but if you lay a bridge across the big river, you can cross and cause mischief in the undefended rear of an unsuspecting foe. I assume IRL both sides would have some notional forces in the SE corner, but these were left out (I assume to reduce unit counts). You may want to put whatever units were in those areas on map just to cover the entire river line. Or you can do what you did in the far north, and just create an impassable area.

Great game by the way. Once the dust settles, I think Spring Awakening 45' will be right up there with the top tier Panzer Campaigns.

[Elxaime]

Hi -

I am playing PBEM as Soviet side in the historical scenario, version 4.04.  We are at Turn 61, and I have noticed two things:

- the 31st GDs Rifle Corps of the 4th GDs Army never releases and is permanently fixed
- while the two battalions of 3rd Tank Brigade of the 23rd Tank Corps arrive released, the 23rd Tank Corps itself remains permanently fixed

Not sure if this was intended or an oversight.  Welcome thoughts.

JVJ

Hi James,

Regarding 23rd Tank Corps it seems there is an error in all campaign scenarios. (01-02-14-15 in both PBEM and vs AI) It should release by 8 March.

Regarding 31st GRC it has a conditional release of 14 March on some campaign scenarios which is right and intended and for others that release is missing.

Both are fixed now. Sorry for that. 
I think the game build will be updated very soon. In the meanwhile use this dropbox link.
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/urglazansod9z...xIg-a?dl=0

Hi -

I replaced the scenario file for the ongoing game, #45_0306_02a_Spring_Awakening_Campaign_Historical, but both the Soviet corps are still fixed.  For 23rd Tank Corps, perhaps it is because the release was March 8 and we are now on March 12?  But I also don't see a release date for 31st GRC.

Thanks,
James

[ComradeP]

Another thought as you consider updates: in the historical campaign (and I assume its variants) the behind-the-front hard road network enables options for the Axis player to shift armor/mechanized forces to attack different areas of the Soviet front, not just the north where they were historically concentrated. This is great! It adds uncertainty and aids in replay. However, the Soviet placements and release and arrival times all presume the historical axes of assault. If other areas are attacked by shifting masses of the German armor south, e.g., the Bulgarians, the Soviet side forces remain fixed and cannot react.

This is not a huge issue, since there are downsides, IMO, to this strategy as well. But you may want to assess the ability of the Soviet side to react to different or unorthodox strategies. If you do so, you may also want to adjust the Axis VP values in the west and south, to make these different approaches worthwhile to the Axis. Perhaps there are historical reasons not to do so, since the Axis seems fully committed to a major northern push. But in game terms, it may be useful to do so.

Another approach would be to provide each side strategies, where the Axis can alter where they deploy and the Soviet side likewise, creating a "guessing game." This is more for "what if" type variants though.

Historically, such a move would've been nearly impossible after the start of the operation given the Axis lack of fuel.

My assessment is that the Axis would be bled white in a frontal attack against a skilled opponent. Even if they can take the objectives, I doubt they can hold them.

That's why I moved many SS units in our PBEM. It's far more entertaining than WWI in 1945 in the north.

I'm curious which units you feel should be released at a different stage. Looking at the release schedule, the vast majority of the Soviet forces are released at the end of day 1. A corps at the northern end of the map is released on the 8th of March, the start of day 3, which doesn't seem unrealistic considering that there are Axis forces north of the map and the Soviets are trying to minimize unit commitment in preparation for what would turn into the Vienna Offensive. 

The two corps closest to the Danube are only released until the 12th of March, but that still doesn't seem too much of a stretch in a situation where some Axis mobile units move south. The approaches to Budapest and the Danube crossings would always need to be protected.

If anything, I'd say the Soviet release schedule is quite flexible. All Red Army frontline formations in the south start released, for instance, even if the Axis forces in their sector are permanently Fixed. 

I didn't attack any formation that was Fixed at the time, as far as I know, though the Bulgarian units opposing my Drava crossing were Fixed for 3 turns when my first unit reached the other side. I guess it might be an issue if a pontoon is constructed earlier. Giving the Bulgarian 12th and 16th Infantry Divisions a T release trigger would solve most of the issue.

On last thing. You may want to consider making the furthest SE corner of the map impassable. Neither side has forces there, but if you lay a bridge across the big river, you can cross and cause mischief in the undefended rear of an unsuspecting foe. I assume IRL both sides would have some notional forces in the SE corner, but these were left out (I assume to reduce unit counts). You may want to put whatever units were in those areas on map just to cover the entire river line. Or you can do what you did in the far north, and just create an impassable area.

Yes, an impassable line of hexes east of Osijek is a good idea. I noticed it wasn't there, but didn't move anyone up there. There's already a ferry and a rail bridge there.

Great game by the way. Once the dust settles, I think Spring Awakening 45' will be right up there with the top tier Panzer Campaigns.

I'm enjoying our PBEM quite a bit. 

Some sort of reduction to losses would be helpful to both sides, given the small average unit size. A downside to using alt values is that they make tiny units nearly bulletproof and larger units take more losses. I don't think I need to see Katyusha or 30cm Nebelwerfer strikes against stacks with alt indirect fire to have an idea of how punishing those would be.

[Ricky B]

Hi -

I am playing PBEM as Soviet side in the historical scenario, version 4.04.  We are at Turn 61, and I have noticed two things:

- the 31st GDs Rifle Corps of the 4th GDs Army never releases and is permanently fixed
- while the two battalions of 3rd Tank Brigade of the 23rd Tank Corps arrive released, the 23rd Tank Corps itself remains permanently fixed

Not sure if this was intended or an oversight.  Welcome thoughts.

JVJ

Hi James,

Regarding 23rd Tank Corps it seems there is an error in all campaign scenarios. (01-02-14-15 in both PBEM and vs AI) It should release by 8 March.

Regarding 31st GRC it has a conditional release of 14 March on some campaign scenarios which is right and intended and for others that release is missing.

Both are fixed now. Sorry for that. 
I think the game build will be updated very soon. In the meanwhile use this dropbox link.
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/urglazansod9z...xIg-a?dl=0

Hi -

I replaced the scenario file for the ongoing game, #45_0306_02a_Spring_Awakening_Campaign_Historical, but both the Soviet corps are still fixed.  For 23rd Tank Corps, perhaps it is because the release was March 8 and we are now on March 12?  But I also don't see a release date for 31st GRC.

Thanks,
James

Hi James

Once a game is started, updated scenario files won't impact the game. Meaning the fixed units won't change, unfortunately. 

Rick

[Elxaime]

Hi James

Once a game is started, updated scenario files won't impact the game. Meaning the fixed units won't change, unfortunately.
Rick

Hi Rick -

Thanks, Pieter came up with an ingenious solution, which was to roll back the game to the earlier midnight, attach the perma-fixed two Soviet Corps to 27th Soviet Army, then they would release later that morning with 27th Soviet Army.

Hi Pieter -

With the coming update addressing the perma-fix issue, the north is fine.  I was speaking more to the west.

- the Bulgarian 16th ID releases on 0400 March 9.  However, its sister divisions of the same corps, 3rd Bulgarian, remain fixed until 0600 March 12.  
- the Soviet 6th Guards Rifle Corps starts unfixed, except for the 10th Guards AB Division, which doesn't release until 0600 March 11, when 57th Army is unfixed.

These are all front-line units.  It just seems that when part of a such a corps releases the whole corps should release. 

It isn't a big issue. I think shifting the main Axis attack to the west also has some real drawbacks, basically because so few high-value victory objectives are attainable in those areas. The Axis will need to get most of its victory points from Soviet casualties, which I think probably gets to a draw at best. Moving all the German armor around probably also causes a lot of vehicle breakdowns (Axis breakdown value in this scenario is 8). Finally, once a Soviet side player sees this "west strategy" once, there are some basic steps he can take to make it much less threatening (even if you don't touch any of the current Soviet release times in the area). It takes a very patient and skilled player like yourself to pull it off! I can't imagine the amount of reworking of corps reattachments that were needed.

I agree completely that carrying out the historical Axis attack in the north, between equal opponents, just leads to a bloodbath that the Axis will eventually come out on the losing end of, basically because of attrition to the Axis infantry. The Soviets have a LOT of artillery in that area. Historically, the German plan of attack looks insane. I suspect the designer may need to fiddle with the VP values and victory levels a bit to give the Axis player a better chance of a victory in "game" terms (e.g. by matching or exceeding historical performances).

Also agree about losses. In the other game I am in, as Axis, the historical northern frontal assault has left both armies in tatters by the end of the third day.

James

[ComradeP]

- the Bulgarian 16th ID releases on 0400 March 9.  However, its sister divisions of the same corps, 3rd Bulgarian, remain fixed until 0600 March 12.  

Edit: you meant the 3rd Bulgarian Corps, not the division.

Without a crossing of the Drava, I don't think I could've threatened the position of the 12th before it was released, but releasing them at the same time seems like a good idea.

Releasing the various Corps assets and the HQ on the 9th as well would also help.

- the Soviet 6th Guards Rifle Corps starts unfixed, except for the 10th Guards AB Division, which doesn't release until 0600 March 11, when 57th Army is unfixed.

Ah, I had missed the separate Fixed trigger for the 10th Guards Airborne Division. I was wondering why its support units were still there when the two regiments of "Hohenstaufen" met, but they couldn't move. Unfixing them should solve the issue, with a T trigger there's still a risk of the Axis advancing into the rear of the unit.

These are all front-line units.  It just seems that when part of a such a corps releases the whole corps should release. 

Normally, the Axis units in front of them are permanently Fixed. With increased visibility, a handful were released, but most are still sitting there in our game. 

Unless a formation is intended as the Corps reserve, I agree about releasing entire frontline Corps at the same time.

It isn't a big issue. I think shifting the main Axis attack to the west also has some real drawbacks, basically because so few high-value victory objectives are attainable in those areas. The Axis will need to get most of its victory points from Soviet casualties, which I think probably gets to a draw at best. Moving all the German armor around probably also causes a lot of vehicle breakdowns (Axis breakdown value in this scenario is 8). Finally, once a Soviet side player sees this "west strategy" once, there are some basic steps he can take to make it much less threatening (even if you don't touch any of the current Soviet release times in the area). It takes a very patient and skilled player like yourself to pull it off! I can't imagine the amount of reworking of corps reattachments that were needed.

One good thing about most Axis armoured units being small: fewer breakdowns. There were certainly some, but I parked most of the armour for 10-20 turns until the weather improved. Moving them there and expecting them without giving them time to recover a bit would be more problematic.

I'm also still aiming for a Draw. Barring a complete Soviet collapse somewhere, I doubt I can reach the ambitious minor victory threshold at this point.

I agree completely that carrying out the historical Axis attack in the north, between equal opponents, just leads to a bloodbath that the Axis will eventually come out on the losing end of, basically because of attrition to the Axis infantry. The Soviets have a LOT of artillery in that area. Historically, the German plan of attack looks insane. I suspect the designer may need to fiddle with the VP values and victory levels a bit to give the Axis player a better chance of a victory in "game" terms (e.g. by matching or exceeding historical performances).

The Axis have serious issues with sustained operations in the campaign scenario, due to unit size. I could imagine reaching Cece, but not holding it. The staggered release of Axis units doesn't help. 

I guess the Axis could delay the offensive for a few turns until more units are released, but at that point the Katyusha's will zap any engineers clearing mines.

Even if I hadn't moved most SS formations south, I don't think I would've attacked along the entire front. 

The initial "offensive" in the northernmost part of the map was a clear sign of things to come.

I guess the dynamic campaign scenario with less movement penalties during Mud turns will be more fluid, but it doesn't change the punishing nature of the artillery on both sides.

Also agree about losses. In the other game I am in, as Axis, the historical northern frontal assault has left both armies in tatters by the end of the third day.

LSSAH and some of the larger battalions in other formations might recover, but it takes forever for the 250-300 Men Axis infantry unit to regain strength. I'm looking forward to hearing how that game ended.

Someone registered an Axis victory in the campaign scenario and my first thought was: "how?"

[Elxaime]

Hi -

A couple more comments for the designer and his revision.

- the PL 16th Assault Division is also perma-fixed, down south along the Danube. It can't react to any developments down there.

- playing as the Axis in another game where I tried the historical northern attack, had an aggressive Soviet opponent that launched an opportunistic attack with the newly-released Bulgarians against the SS Handschar Division in the SW around Barcs, (which is vulnerable due it being with its backs to the river and having no bridging unit). Like many of the other fixed units, the Handschar does not fully release if any part of it is contacted, but instead releases unit by unit as they come in contact, meaning it can be defeated in detail.

These are relatively minor aspects. As noted above, it helps a lot if the fixed units release as a unit if any one of them are contacted.

I assume the revisions underway will keep the game fun for both sides, while taking into account the viable Axis (and Soviet) options for making the fight in places not where it was historically fought.

[Outlaw Josey Wales]

Hi -

A couple more comments for the designer and his revision.

- the PL 16th Assault Division is also perma-fixed, down south along the Danube.  It can't react to any developments down there.

- playing as the Axis in another game where I tried the historical northern attack, had an aggressive Soviet opponent that launched an opportunistic attack with the newly-released Bulgarians against the SS Handschar Division in the SW around Barcs, (which is vulnerable due it being with its backs to the river and having no bridging unit).  Like many of the other fixed units, the Handschar does not fully release if any part of it is contacted, but instead releases unit by unit as they come in contact, meaning it can be defeated in detail. 

These are relatively minor aspects.  As noted above, it helps a lot if the fixed units release as a unit if any one of them are contacted. 

I assume the revisions underway will keep the game fun for both sides, while taking into account the viable Axis (and Soviet) options for making the fight in places not where it was historically fought.

I haven't seen the game yet.  But, it's all the same.  Units release or don't depending on the situation.  Maybe, the rest could not leave their post guarding against possible threats from other directions or some other reason.  Seems to me, the best way is to create a what if scenario rather than change the game.