Hidden units

[kineas]

Hidden units are not revealed by the recon spotting ability.

Perhaps a noob question, but .. what units does recon spotting reveal then? Is there a non-spotted but non-concealed status?

[Strela]

Hidden units are not revealed by the recon spotting ability.

Perhaps a noob question, but .. what units does recon spotting reveal then? Is there a non-spotted but non-concealed status?

Mowgli's statement is incorrect. Recon spotting will reveal Hidden units, but only if they are in the recon unit's line of sight. The line of sight requirement may be what he is getting confused with.

It always pay to get your recons onto hills and start recon spotting as that will make more of the surrounding terrain visible.

David

[Dog Soldier]

There is also the consideration of the size of the recon unit. Larger recon units have more eyes and see more in PzB. However, they can be attacked as recon units expend MP so they in turn can be spotted and targeted. Think about the optimum size where the recon unit is effective in spotting but not so large (company size) as to attract many casualties from enemy opportunity fire.

Dog Soldier

[Steel God]

There is also the consideration of the size of the recon unit.  Larger recon units have more eyes and see more in PzB.  However, they can be attacked as recon units expend MP so they in turn can be spotted and targeted.  Think about the optimum size  where the recon unit is effective in spotting but not so large (company size) as to attract many casualties from enemy opportunity fire.

Dog Soldier

Hmmm, didn't catch onto that bit not recon spotting, but the size of the recon unit).  Makes good sense though.  Like PzB more and more.

[Strela]

There is also the consideration of the size of the recon unit.  Larger recon units have more eyes and see more in PzB.  However, they can be attacked as recon units expend MP so they in turn can be spotted and targeted.  Think about the optimum size  where the recon unit is effective in spotting but not so large (company size) as to attract many casualties from enemy opportunity fire.

Dog Soldier

Hmmm, didn't catch onto that bit not recon spotting, but the size of the recon unit).  Makes good sense though.  Like PzB more and more.

I don't think that's right i.e. the size of the recon unit has an impact on ability to spot. They either see or they don't. You essentially get three attempts with each unit per turn (assuming it doesn't move). Doing it at platoon level obviously gives you more chance of spotting than if all units are combined into a single company. The issue as Dog Soldier calls out, is that you will be spotted if someone has line of sight on you so you need to spot and then reposition. Not always the easiest thing to do. EDIT, looking at the air recon rules on page 70, size is an issue and quite possibly impacts recon spotting as well.

That said as you are seeing there is a lot of nuance at this scale, it really is grand tactical as compared to squad battles tactical and the less granular Panzer Battles.

David

[Mowgli]

Hidden units are not revealed by the recon spotting ability.

Perhaps a noob question, but .. what units does recon spotting reveal then? Is there a non-spotted but non-concealed status?

Mowgli's statement is incorrect. Recon spotting will reveal Hidden units, but only if they are in the recon unit's line of sight. The line of sight requirement may be what he is getting confused with.

It always pay to get your recons onto hills and start recon spotting as that will make more of the surrounding terrain visible.

David

Thanks for pointing that out! :) Recon spotting is not described in the manual in any detail (p. 36-37). Does it work somewhat similar to air recon missions then (p. 70-71)?

[Mowgli]

Hidden units are not revealed by the recon spotting ability.

Perhaps a noob question, but .. what units does recon spotting reveal then? Is there a non-spotted but non-concealed status?

Recon spotting also allows you to discover enemies (who are not revealing themselves to you by opportunity fire) in your own turn while you're on the move. 

As in all Tiller games, you usually only reveal enemy units that are within LOS of at least one of your units AT THE START OF YOUR TURN (and who are not concealed in PzBattles/SquadBattles). This means that if you move around corners/over hills into hitherto un-reconed terrain, you're basically moving into the unknown. Enemy units are not "updated/revealed" live while you're moving. 

With recon units, you can just crest the hill, use the spotting ability and see if everything is clear and safe for your column to continue. You can "spot on the move", so to speak.

[Strela]

Hidden units are not revealed by the recon spotting ability.

Perhaps a noob question, but .. what units does recon spotting reveal then? Is there a non-spotted but non-concealed status?

Mowgli's statement is incorrect. Recon spotting will reveal Hidden units, but only if they are in the recon unit's line of sight. The line of sight requirement may be what he is getting confused with.

It always pay to get your recons onto hills and start recon spotting as that will make more of the surrounding terrain visible.

David

Thanks for pointing that out! :) Recon spotting is not described in the manual in any detail (p. 36-37). Does it work somewhat similar to air recon missions then (p. 70-71)?

That's a great question and now that I look at page 70/71 I see where Dog Soldier is indicating that strength maybe a modifier.

I don't have the answer right now, but it is probably fair to assume that the air recon routines would be similar to the recon spotting routines.

David

[Mowgli]

I'm a bit deeper into my first "I understand hidden units now!"-PBEM. And I have to say it completely changes the way the game plays (for the better in my opinion).

I'm playing on the defensive and my fire actions are now all carefully selected. The chaotic "everyone shoots everyone in all directions" that dominated my previous games is completely gone. The balance of units and the way in which you need to use them feels much more plausible now. The game is also much "tighter" now - every action/move counts.

As the defender, I keep most of my infantry hidden with opportunity fire turned off completely. So the enemy needs to bring infantry in order to assault my infantry. Tanks alone can't get me out of my strongpoints. Unless he wants to risk sending a platoon against my company, he also needs to attack in company strength, which, in turn, makes him very vulnerable to indirect fire (particularly indirect opp. fire which has a 200% modificator in this particular scenario). My own infantry, by contrast, is relatively safe from his artillery (*0.25 for firing at unspotted enemies). Also, my opponent is delayed a lot for he has to skim through all the fields to make sure none of my hidden infantry units can slip through and threaten his rear units. It's very dangerous to follow up with artillery (towed guns in travel mode = *0.25 defence!!) if the enemy can still see you.

In general, it's a much more "controlled" and better experience for me now.

[Strela]

I'm a bit deeper into my first "I understand hidden units now!"-PBEM. And I have to say it completely changes the way the game plays (for the better in my opinion).

I'm playing on the defensive and my fire actions are now all carefully selected. The chaotic "everyone shoots everyone in all directions" that dominated my previous games is completely gone. The balance of units and the way in which you need to use them feels much more plausible now. The game is also much "tighter" now - every action/move counts.

As the defender, I keep most of my infantry hidden with opportunity fire turned off completely. So the enemy needs to bring infantry in order to assault my infantry. Tanks alone can't get me out of my strongpoints. Unless he wants to risk sending a platoon against my company, he also needs to attack in company strength, which, in turn, makes him very vulnerable to indirect fire (particularly indirect opp. fire which has a 200% modificator in this particular scenario). My own infantry, by contrast, is relatively safe from his artillery (*0.25 for firing at unspotted enemies). Also, my opponent is delayed a lot for he has to skim through all the fields to make sure none of my hidden infantry units can slip through and threaten his rear units. It's very dangerous to follow up with artillery (towed guns in travel mode = *0.25 defence!!) if the enemy can still see you.

In general, it's a much more "controlled" and better experience for me now.

Welcome to Panzer Battles!

It's hard to explain all the nuances, but you have hit on one of them. Deciding when to reveal yourself and when to fire is key. You don't want to reveal yourself unless you can bring more direct fire to bear than your opponent. If you can't then you use your indirect fire whenever you can.

The other is the variable victory points. That adds a whole range of other incentives, particularly on the attacking side.

Overall, I have found Panzer Battles to be a lot deeper than people realise and its a joy when players start to discover that themselves....

David