Is the Kursk campaign viable?

Landser34 · (This post was last modified: 06-03-2006, 05:12 AM by Landser34.)

Here is the Record from the Club Stats in the Scenario Section .

In the Battle for Kursk Campaign the Game has been played 26 times

Germans win 21 times

The Russians win 5

In the Welcome to the Facist Played 16 times

Germans win 14 times

Russians win 2

In the Welcome to the Facist PBEM played 13 times

Germans Win 10 times

Russian wins 1

One Draw

In the North Battle Not one Step back played 17 times

Germans win 13 times

Russians wins 3 times

One Draw
now i dont know about the rest of you but the statistics speak for themselves this game heavily favors the Germans and the way game is Setup now Russians have almost no chance

**Ricky B** · 06-03-2006, 05:15 AM,

I think what Glenn is looking for, over and beyond the analysis of everything, is just some files to show what is happening, so he knows what to try and tweak to fix it. Some can be determined from reading here, such as a strike to the northwest rather than north and northeast in the south is fatal, but it would still help a lot to review some files to determine the details of where things are too weak and so firm it up to make it a little bit more probability based if a player tries different things, without forcing the German to follow history exactly.

One other thing that I am gathering from all the comments is that quite a bit of the planning for the German side is based on knowing the situation, either from prior play or reviewing the start positions. I know when I played it I started out with the original German plan, within reason, as I didn't look over the Soviet side first. Then I moved a division in the south off to strike northwest from the eastern side, etc, which caused the Soviet player a lot of grief, but it was immediate destruction. Even then, just from losses to the Soviet I was well on the way to a victory, but was nowhere close when we ended the game. But the SS was worn out by that time, other divisions needed to rest, etc.

So I see this foreknowledge causing some of the problems for the Soviets too, not all of it but some. But seeing how players have implemented use of this knowledge by reviewing the action as it unfolds would be invaluable to Glenn in determining what to do. My files won't help, too much along the lines of the historical attack early on.

Rick

von Waldenburg · 06-03-2006, 12:55 PM,

Unfix Steppe front forces maybe including S|O to react to german counterplans?

Elxaime · 06-03-2006, 01:54 PM,

There are several good alternative scenarios out there which aim to balance the K43' campaign. However, if I was to try and "fix" the campaign scenario making the fewest possible corrections, here is what I would do:

OPTION A
Cut down the size of the map so that only the main sectors are present, eliminating both the face of the salient and extreme north Bryansk Front areas which cause problems. Have Soviet reinforcements begin stacked along map edges a la F40, with "trigger" units (e.g. ten man companies of their organization) sprinkled so as to release them early if the German advance takes a particular direction.

OPTION B

Keep the map as is, but:

1. Fix all German units along the face of the salient that were not along the historic axis of advance, releasing them by a percentage starting around turn 60

2. Put all Soviet and German infantry and AT guns along the historically quiet sectors of the front in bunkers; this should make attacks in those areas less simple, and this would in particular help the Germans stave off any early foray by Bryansk Front

3. On the main axes of attack, increase the density of Soviet minefields, and up the quality of the first and second line Soviet infantry by one level - these were well-trained troops who had months to prepare, site weapons, etc. and should be more formidable than they are now

4. Reduce the Panther quality by one level

5. Double the VP levels and the VP hex values so that, in order for the German to win, he has to accomplish the historic objectives set by Hitler

6. Set recovery rates for the Germans to 5 percent and Soviets to 2 percent - the Germans should have to win by ruthless thrusts not through attrition aided by higher recovery rates (right now its 9 to 2)

7. Add artillery stockpiling. For the Soviets, this will make their massed artillery the tank killers they were historically.

von Nev · (This post was last modified: 06-03-2006, 02:19 PM by von Nev.)

There has been a lot of work by club members to address some of the known challenges of the stock 43 campaign. Check them out on Glenn's unofficial website at:
http://members.shaw.ca/gcsaunders/downloads3.html.

I have played Michael Smith's version as the Germans and it addresses many, many concerns. It is much more difficult campaign for the Germans. For starters, it increases the minefields dramatically, puts Russians in bunkers along non-traditional German access of attacks, unfixes Russian units, puts VP hexes behind German lines and across the whole salient. Good stuff. Kudos to Michael.

Also, Tolbukhin has a great list of what the Germans can do to take advantage of known issues with the stock K43 campaign but he missed one of the biggest German advantages. He mentions that the North can end up in a stalemate which is true in many cases, but if the German wants to REALLY, REALLY ensure a win he can win in the North too.

What he can do is move a significant portion of the 9th Army mobile forces west about 20 - 30 kms and then attack south. He still needs to attack south along the traditional axis of attack with some forces to fix the Russian infantry in place. With this "west-then-south" strategy, the Russians can barely respond because all their arty (which is what is a huge contributor to stopping the German attack) and significant slow moving infantry defenses are lined up to counter the traditional axis of attack. Plus, the Russian lines here are maybe two deep defended by fixed Russians of poor quality with little mobile reserves. Remember that historically the Russians, from intel, knew well in advance the general axis of attack and prepared defenses and positioned reserves accordingly.

So, the highly mobile Germans can scoot west and then attack south with crushing armor forces and break it open within 7 or so turns without the Russians knowing what hit 'em. They will destroy the Russian infantry and be able to destroy piecemeal the Russian armor as it is rushed forward to try to save Russian infantry divisions and to plug the growing gap. If the campaign lasts beyond 20 turns the Russians are in big trouble since now there is a breakthough in the north and the Steppe forces have to be deployed in part here. This robs the Russians the only force that has any chance to counter the SS in the south. It is worse if the Germans in the south attacked northwest as what has been suggested as a guaranteed win strategy.

Although this strategy generally requires pre-knowledge of Russian unit disposition, especially fixed, it is easily recognized once you played 10 turns or so on either side. This strategy, combined with the northwest German attack in the south and aggressive German attacks along the face of the salient, affords little good options to the Russians except massive retreat regardless of losses (which guarantees a German victory) or stand and fight and be slaughtered (another German victory). The campaign can get to a decisive German victory in 20 turns without the Steppe forces firing a shot. :kill:

Marty

Glenn Saunders · 06-03-2006, 03:10 PM,

Guys:

Enjoy the alternatives from the various sources, or have adjustments made to the default game - matters not to me!

But if there is something wrong with any game or campaign and I can fix it, I am happy to do so, just as long as I can see the problem with a file - PERIOD - no discussion.

Too many times I've attempted to make changes based on what I thought somebody was saying only to discover we were world apart in our mutual understanding of the issue.

If the Germans can win the K43 CG in HTH play in 9 turns - feel free to provide me all the ideas you like for fixing it - just as long as I can see the turn 9 BTL file which gives me the full picture.

I trust you are with me in why I ask for files and are we clear that I won't be doing tweaks based on text info from forum discussion and it has nothing to do with believing what your guys are saying.

Glenn

Elxaime · 06-03-2006, 03:55 PM,

Von Nev -

If you'd like I can play the Soviets against you in the stock K43 campaign. I will go all out to try and win (e.g. I won't be throwing the game) and you go ahead and use the maximum German strategies so we can get a decent game file for Glen to look at.

Let me know. If you agree, go ahead and send the first turn with whatever optionals you deem appropriate.

Elxaime aka Tolbukhin

[email protected]

von Waldenburg · 06-04-2006, 01:12 AM,

I think is really hard to say that you can not win with one side in such a huge campaign with virtually infinite variants. A very complex and precise analisys has to be made to determine that, and I doubt anybody has done this or will do it in this or in other campaign.

For me the stock campaign is basically right, of course if the german dev iates from plan a slow russian will rapidly pay for that. But he has the tools to parry inmediate defeat (namely 1st Tank Army in the south and 2nd Tank in the north). One problem I see here is that initial tactical heavy loses make a big impact in russian players morale and can lead to an operational disaster and a strategic nightmare, but this tactical drawbacks can be counter in style with careful handling of reserves. In this game concentration means all for the Russians, more than in any other game in my experience. It's what can make particular units survive and fight another day along with extremely wishful thinking, planing and execution or course. Obviously it favors the Germans as results indicate, but I wouldnt say it is imposible to win as Russian even if German deviates, but I might be wrong of course.

cheers

cavalry corps · 06-04-2006, 02:19 AM,

Dear All ,
In my revised canmpaign I have won as allies and Axis , I am just finishing V4 with many further improvements .
I will proceed quicker now i have seen this post

If anyone wants to try it out or just look it over for comments let me know .

You will not find it a push over as Axis at all despite the fact the axis units look so strong

m