Objective Lipel 1941 - Newest H2H Approved Scenario!

[Kool Kat]

Gents:

I don't mind debate and discussion in these forums. I also don't mind disagreement since everyone is entitled to voice their opinions and not everyone will agree with a view point. I also find constructive criticism valid... and I believe designers would be more receptive if some folks exercised better judgement in "how" that criticism was expressed.

I'm sure Eric would have appreciated an "offline" note from the more skilled and experienced scenario designers... to help with improving his design.

Maybe Huib would be willing to help Eric with his map / terrain?

Overall, I would like to see more players actively involved with the H2H Testing... designers, play testers, and other scenario "experts" to improve the overall process.

[Huib Versloot]

Belarus is predominantly lowland - flat plains occupy 60 percent of the territory, plateaux 10 percent, and highland hilly areas nearly 30 percent. The north-west has broken and highland relief, while in the south-eastern part the land is mainly level. The south of the Republic is occupied by vast areas of Belarusian Polesje (wood land) which is a large waterlogged flat depression stretching for 450 km from the river Bug to the Dniepr.

Might go some way to explain it.

There is no explanation other than that the designer has overlooked it, or not thought of it due to inexperience. Holland is about the flattest pancake on earth and even there you can't do without some elevation differences. My criticism is not so much towards the maker but more to the testers who failed to notice.

On a side note, I don't think Kool Kat's response below is helping anyone. My criticism is mild, normal and not offensive to anyone. Besides that there are very few who have helped others more in their designing efforts than me.

Huib

[Scud]

Huib's point might be valid, but the playtesters run the gamut of experience. I've playtested, but have tried to make sure the designer knows my limitations.

If Eric's map isn't right, can it be fixed without too much affect to the playability of the scenario?

Going forward, how can we better test H2H scenarios? Can someone step forward to playtest only with an eye toward the map design? Another, only with an eye toward equipment, etc?

The idea behind H2H is to try to make balanced scenarios where either side has a chance for victory, as much as that is possible with this system of playtesting.

Criticism is always a good thing when it's meant constructively. Huib, if Eric is willing, can you give him some help with this?

Dave

[Crossroads]

I first read Huib's posting like he's having a bad hair day too but on a second read and having looked at the scenario I see his point. Eric's done a great job and put a lot of work to his scenario obviously, and I am sure Huib commented more on the process it self.

Dave, I like your idea of having access to map specialist, oob specialist while putting a scenario to being tested. Then, the play testers can concentrate on the balance and fun factor.

[Ashcloud]

As one of the few testers who played as Germans and lost badly I based most of my test report on things like the map and the lack of elevation (not sure if you read my test report, Huib?) and other details, and not so much on the play balance (which I thought was good in spite of my poor result - I just played it really badly).

[Herr Straße Laufer]

LOL!
You all are kinder than me.

I thought the scenario was fine. I'm not going to say anything negative in response to certain critics. But, I am sure he knows what I am thinking? :fire extinguisher:

Players want a well balanced, fun to play experience. I thought Eric's scenario was fun to play and balanced. It was my experience and how I reported it.

If I do not like scenarios I remove them from my game folder. Believe me, there are a lot of "historically and geographically" accurate scenarios, from "respected" designers that I have removed because I found no fun or PBEM balance. :missing2:

If terrain elevations are that important that someone felt the need to be that critical, I would suggest a nice ride in the country ... away from CS and the computer.

Others have already posted some of my other thoughts and I agree with them.



HSL

[Huib Versloot]

If others find this scn so good, I don't care what is approved or not. If people want to continue to fool themselves go ahead. Elevations are the first thing any soldier looks for on any map because they are more important than anything else.

I haven't played this one, I haven't read any test reports, fact of the matter is I see a 140x70 hex map of the Eastern Front with NO elevations.

I rest my case.

Huib

[Herr Straße Laufer]

If you "do not care" you should have rested "your case" by not commenting about resting your case? But, you had to comment. You care.

I see a balanced and fun scenario. Larger than I normally like to play but I spent many hours helping to make it balanced. I'd play Eric's design a dozen times knowing that it will be fun and balanced over playing some of the dreck that "famous" designers think are historical and geographically accurate.



HSL

[Otto von Blotto]

Belarus is predominantly lowland - flat plains occupy 60 percent of the territory, plateaux 10 percent, and highland hilly areas nearly 30 percent. The north-west has broken and highland relief, while in the south-eastern part the land is mainly level. The south of the Republic is occupied by vast areas of Belarusian Polesje (wood land) which is a large waterlogged flat depression stretching for 450 km from the river Bug to the Dniepr.

Might go some way to explain it.

There is no explanation other than that the designer has overlooked it, or not thought of it due to inexperience. Holland is about the flattest pancake on earth and even there you can't do without some elevation differences. My criticism is not so much towards the maker but more to the testers who failed to notice.

Huib

Actaully i think it does as when I first saw the scn in mid january I commented to Eric.

First thoughts good looking large map nice forests and features but it is a bit flat, is the area you are portraying that flat all over. ?

to which he replyed

Terry; Its Beloruss & the topographical maps I looked at from Map Maker the the Sats maps didnt really show allot of elavation, just woods(even today).

I looked at the topgapgical maps to and that area show a diffence in hight of under 10 meters

III. The region of plains and bottomlands of Predpolesje occupies an intermediate position between the hills of the centre and the bottom land of Polesje. General height is 160-190 m and the relief is made up of typical river valleys.

but this is where the game is set
IV. The regions of the Polesje bottomlands occupy the southern lower part of Belarus with flattest plain, waterlogged relief and sandy peat soils.

source
So flat they give no hight diffence at all....and yes you are being rude...to eric and to the testers.

[Huib Versloot]

Belarus is predominantly lowland - flat plains occupy 60 percent of the territory, plateaux 10 percent, and highland hilly areas nearly 30 percent. The north-west has broken and highland relief, while in the south-eastern part the land is mainly level. The south of the Republic is occupied by vast areas of Belarusian Polesje (wood land) which is a large waterlogged flat depression stretching for 450 km from the river Bug to the Dniepr.

Might go some way to explain it.

There is no explanation other than that the designer has overlooked it, or not thought of it due to inexperience. Holland is about the flattest pancake on earth and even there you can't do without some elevation differences. My criticism is not so much towards the maker but more to the testers who failed to notice.

Huib

Actaully i think it does as when I first saw the scn in mid january I commented to Eric.

First thoughts good looking large map nice forests and features but it is a bit flat, is the area you are portraying that flat all over. ?

to which he replyed

Terry; Its Beloruss & the topographical maps I looked at from Map Maker the the Sats maps didnt really show allot of elavation, just woods(even today).

I looked at the topgapgical maps to and that area show a diffence in hight of under 10 meters

III. The region of plains and bottomlands of Predpolesje occupies an intermediate position between the hills of the centre and the bottom land of Polesje. General height is 160-190 m and the relief is made up of typical river valleys.

but this is where the game is set
IV. The regions of the Polesje bottomlands occupy the southern lower part of Belarus with flattest plain, waterlogged relief and sandy peat soils.

source
So flat they give no hight diffence at all....and yes you are being rude...to eric and to the testers.

I'm glad someone questioned the flatness during testing. I can't even find the exact spot on Google Earth or Google search using the labels used in the map. It doesn't change my opinion of the map and the effort put into it. And no I'm not rude, criticism is normal, at least where I come from.