LOS a Problem Maybe ?

[umbro]

Gordon:

You have put your finger on one of the main problems of IGOUGO games attempting to model essentially simultaneous activity.

The unit that moves into the hex which has LOS, from a hex with no LOS is assumed to have done that simultaneously with the action that revealed the target unit. Of course, because the player has seen the previous event he chooses to make a specific move.

To address this needs a major rethink of the game mechanics (plot your move, opponent plots his, computer determines outcome, rinse, repeat)

umbro

[FM WarB]

To address this needs a major rethink of the game mechanics (plot your move, opponent plots his, computer determines outcome, rinse, repeat)
umbro

That is WEGO, not IGUGO. Good if AI is good, playing against the computer, but the extra turn transfers for PBEM become a drag.
After experimenting with WEGO games, thats a big reason I'm back to CS.

[umbro]

To address this needs a major rethink of the game mechanics (plot your move, opponent plots his, computer determines outcome, rinse, repeat)
umbro

That is WEGO, not IGUGO. Good if AI is good, playing against the computer, but the extra turn transfers for PBEM become a drag.
After experimenting with WEGO games, thats a big reason I'm back to CS.

Absolutely correct. My apologies, I was not suggesting that this as a way forward, simply pointing out that one of the prices we pay for the benefits of IGOUGO is some oddities around simultaneity. IMHO they are worth the benefits.

umbro

[Gordons HQ]

WEGO, no that's not what I was thinking of here.
Perhaps Jason can answer this issue

I was wondering if it was within the powers of the game engine for only actual units which are on the map to have a LOS.
This I know would greatly alter play and that is why I was wondering what others felt of this.

As I see it, it certainly would make the game more realistic having to move a unit into an hex to check out LOS.
There however maybe other issues that I have not thought of.
So if it is possible and the game engine could in fact do this then it needs to be I feel discussed at length.
I certainly hope at least it is food for thought.

Cheers Gordon

[Herr Straße Laufer]

So lets consider this, some unit can see an enemy unit, it doesn't matter what the units are. You left click on that enemy unit and you can see every hex that the enemy unit can be seen from.
I stress here every hex that enemy unit can be seen from.

I do not see this as a problem.

Luckily you know the enemy unit has used it's action points so there will be no op fire from that particular enemy unit.
However you are free to move units into any of the hexes that enemy unit can be seen from. You can then fire at will at this particular enemy unit.

I don't want to walk down the road of "what if this or what if that". You assume an enemy unit has used up all it's AP's or you set up your example that way? How do you know that there is not an unseen unit in the hex previous to the other's move into the hex?
Do you play with extreme fog of war?

And, isn't it realistic to see the enemy and shoot at them? Then maneuver other units to positions to shoot at the enemy?
Game mechanics are not a factor of how long a person plays the game.

So what I'm trying to say here is this is very unrealistic and you need units in these hexes to be able to see this unit.

Maybe I just don't understand?

RR

[Herr Straße Laufer]

I was wondering if it was within the powers of the game engine for only actual units which are on the map to have a LOS.
This I know would greatly alter play and that is why I was wondering what others felt of this.

As I said, I do not like this idea. I thought Umbro gave a good response to this question.

As I see it, it certainly would make the game more realistic having to move a unit into an hex to check out LOS.
There however maybe other issues that I have not thought of.

Yup!

RR

[Gordons HQ]

OK Ed I knew I would get this response from you.
It seems you are against any change and your views have been noted.
Can anyone else please who has other views please comment.

[FM WarB]

It would slow gameplay, if I had to get out a ruler and align it along the LOS in question to determine if there was LOS. Or like in the old paper game days compute some convoluted formula. That's what computers are for.
The ruler might not displace counters, like in the old paper days, but it could scratch my monitor.
I consider one click LOS checking to be digitally granted Fingerspitzengefuhl.

[Herr Straße Laufer]

OK Ed I knew I would get this response from you.
It seems you are against any change and your views have been noted.
Can anyone else please who has other views please comment.

No Gordon, you are wrong. I simply agreed with Jonathan/Umbro and disagreed with you. :chin:
I do not want anyone to shove a red hot poker into my eye, even if you think they should. Does that make my viewpoint wrong?
I do not want the change you asked for. I have asked for many other changes. I only truly dislike the change to extreme assault and wanted an "assault light" formula.
Please, try to be less dismissive and more understanding. :rolleyes:
I saw where you were coming from. I presented where I was coming from. It is called discussion?
I even agreed with Huib's comment that it could be something that a scenario designer could "fix" and not be a radical change to the game as you suggested.
What parts of that ruffled your feathers? :dunno:

This game has seen too many "stupid" changes, some of which became options in later editions. We were not given a chance to voice ourselves until after they were forced upon us. You made a suggestion. I disagreed with it, as did others. The discussion was started until you chose to be dismissive of my comments.
Now you want "others" to support your idea. That's O.K., but are you going to be equally dismissive of them if they disagree?
Then it will become a total non-discussion? :(

I like the way the visibility works in the game. LOS rules have been fought over in miniatures and board games for years. If you ever played PanzerBlitz/Leader or Squad Leader board games I'm sure you've had the LOS discussion a time or two? In miniatures games maybe you've squished down some lychen trees, or pushed a plastic building slightly out of the way, as you laid out your yardstick to check LOS. "Yup, I can see you!"
At least this game engine allows for "hidden" units to remain hidden where and when they sould be hidden, and effective LOS algorithms, which prevent players from seeing all units on the map, and even the details of the units when Extreme Fog of War is selected?

And, yes, when I have time I like to click the map to 2-D mode and set for visibility so that I might see what my opponent can see as I move upon his hidden units. I'd do so with a regular map that was terrain gridded "in real life". But, the "game" already allows for the map to work with the players? I simply do not want to see "a change" that has it work against the players. :whis:

**sits here and shakes head** :conf:

RR

[Herr Straße Laufer]

It would slow gameplay, if I had to get out a ruler and align it along the LOS in question to determine if there was LOS. Or like in the old paper game days compute some convoluted formula. That's what computers are for.
The ruler might not displace counters, like in the old paper days, but it could scratch my monitor.
I consider one click LOS checking to be digitally granted Fingerspitzengefuhl.

Amen. :thumbs_up:

Ed